Episode 77
Moving Forward Without All the Answers with Tony Cooke

Jill:
00:09

Hi, and welcome to the Finding Hope Podcast, Getting Through What You Never Asked For. We’re Charlie and Jill LeBlanc, and we’re so glad that you’ve joined us today. We’ve got something really special for you.

Charlie:
00:20

Yes. We have a special guest, a dear friend of ours named Tony Cooke. Welcome, Tony. Hey, thank you, Charlie and Jill.

Tony:
00:29

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of what you’re doing.

Charlie:
00:31

Well, you know that we’re to so have you, there’s so much we wanna talk about. You know, we met you years ago, actually, just after we lost Bovee is when we really, met you. We we we lost Beau in 2009. And then shortly after that, I mean, I knew you were teaching, at Andrew Womack Bible College a little bit, and and somehow Andrew helped us get together or something. Don’t Well,

Jill:
00:58

we were there doing the worship school.

Charlie:
01:01

Okay.

Jill:
01:01

And then y’all came to speak while we happened to be there because we were only there part time, like, three days a week. And just so happened.

Charlie:
01:11

Yeah. And your wife just ministered to us so much. I can’t tell you how much it helped us. I’ll never forget seeing your wife with a tear down her eye as she was ministering to us. I was like, weep with those who weep, but I’ve never seen anyone do that to me to that point.

Charlie:
01:31

That really touched my heart. As an introduction, and I’m not gonna do this well because I’m not as prepared as I should, but just so everyone knows, Tony is an incredible Bible teacher. He’s been in ministry for over

Tony:
01:47

help me, Six years.

Charlie:
01:48

Forty six years. Just an amazing man of God. He’s taught for eighteen and a half years at Rhema Bible Training Center and helped lead the healing school there for a while, right?

Tony:
02:03

No, I led the ministerial association.

Charlie:
02:06

Okay, ministerial. Okay, I wasn’t And based on what you told me before we started, you left in 2002. Correct. And now have been traveling for how many years now?

Tony:
02:20

Twenty six. Twenty six. A little more than twenty six years traveling Yeah, full time

Charlie:
02:25

has 17 books out, and they are phenomenal. We encourage Tanja’s gonna have all the information in the notes underneath this podcast, but I just encourage everybody to just really hook into Tony’s ministry. It is so powerful. His newsletters, his research is just there’s nothing hardly to compare with it today. So I I really appreciate it.

Charlie:
02:50

And speaking of books, of of the 17, Tony wrote a book called Life After Death. And interestingly, he wrote this in 2002, I think.

Tony:
03:02

Is that right?

Charlie:
03:03

2003, something like that. And it says, Rediscovering Life after the loss of a loved one. And and Tony, we just that book really blessed us. The the bits and pieces we were able to to read when we were just broken. Obviously, the the one on one helped us the most.

Charlie:
03:25

But but listen, it’s a joy and an honor to have you. And I know you have so much to say about loss, especially now because Tony called me just a week or so ago to let me know that he had just lost his son, Andrew. And it was just 20, at the time, two weeks, twenty three weeks ago. And so, if you could, let’s just start off with you just sharing what led you to write the book, and then, you know, how how it’s affecting you now that you’ve had such a traumatic loss. Yeah.

Tony:
04:08

Thank you. And those two kind of blend together in a interesting, unusual way.

Jill:
04:13

Yeah.

Tony:
04:15

The reason I wrote the book way back in the early two thousands is I had been a pastor, an associate pastor, at two very large churches. Ah. Evangelistic Temple in Tulsa for three and a half years. That’s the church that Oral Roberts originally came out of. Okay.

Tony:
04:34

And Wow. And I was on staff there after he had left, but I was on staff there for three and a half years and did a lot of the counseling, did several funerals, worked with families when they’d lost loved ones. And and then I went out to Rhema and was on staff there for eighteen and a half years.

Charlie:
04:55

Wow.

Tony:
04:55

Did a lot of pastoral care there. I was actually kind of in charge of past oral care in the church. We had several ministers worked in that area, but I kind of coordinated and, again, was with lots of families when a loved one would pass on.

Charlie:
05:12

Wow.

Tony:
05:12

And and I just began to watch. And and maybe in some denominational backgrounds, it’s it’s a little bit different. But when you’re in an environment where people believe in healing Yes. And, you know, have strong inclinations and faith. You know, I believe my loved one is gonna be healed.

Tony:
05:33

Yes. And and then they go to heaven. They they they they pass away. Yeah. And then they not only have the loss of their loved one, but they have the questioning of what did I do wrong?

Tony:
05:47

Did I not have enough faith? There there are complications.

Charlie:
05:52

Yes. You know,

Tony:
05:52

a purse a person who just believes that, well, God, whatever happens, happens, and whatever happens, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. It it from a from a processing standpoint, that might be kind of easier just to say, well, that’s just the way it was supposed to be. Right. You know? But when you believe certain things about healing and answered prayer and promises and things like that and a loved one passes away, then you have a lot of complicating factors.

Tony:
06:23

And I’m not saying that we should throw away our faith in healing or the goodness of God or anything like that. But, know, what I found is that people that I worked with over twenty some years really had complicated grief because they not only had to deal with the loss of their loved one, but they had to question, you know, did I not pray right? Did I not have enough faith? You know, did my loved one not have enough faith? And so it opened up the door for lots of guilt and questioning and even condemnation and things like that, feelings of failure in an in in inadequacy And so I actually began leading support groups at Rhema.

Tony:
07:11

Sunday morning before church, we would meet. I would just say, hey, if you’ve had a loved one pass away and you’re facing challenges with it, know, let’s get together. And we would have 25 people sometimes, maybe 28 or something, 20, whatever. And so I really just spent a lot of time listening to people’s stories and listening to their heart. When I wrote the book Life After Death, Rediscovering Life After the Loss of a Loved One that you held up a little bit ago, a lot of people said, Tony, what what losses have you faced that caused you to write this?

Tony:
07:47

And they they thought, you’ve got a you’ve got good insight on these things. And I said, honestly, I I wrote that book by working with people and observing and listening and seeing what people go through. And now since that time, since 2002, I I started writing in 2002. It was published in 2003. I’ve had my dad was killed in a car accident.

Tony:
08:15

My mom died a few years later partially, you know, probably due to some of the injuries. You know, it was hastened probably because of some of the injuries she had. I had a brother pass away. And then our son, Andrew, we just love and miss him to this day. Passed away on 03/11/2026 this year.

Tony:
08:40

And so we’re we’re recording this in August. So, you know, we’re still in kind of a fresh stage of of, you know, processing all those feelings. And, you know, sometimes people say, how long does it take to get over whatever? And I heard somebody say, you don’t ever get over it.

Charlie:
08:59

Exactly.

Tony:
09:00

Your your life is forever changed.

Charlie:
09:02

That’s right.

Tony:
09:03

You you you learn to adjust. You learn to accept. You you learn to integrate that loss into your life, but you’re forever changed.

Charlie:
09:15

Yes.

Tony:
09:15

And that doesn’t mean you have to go through life bitter and bereft and that type of thing. You know, we’ve found two things, you know, since our son passed away. And he passed away by his own hand. He had had bipolar disorder since 2008. And so we had a lot of really challenging times, you know, during those eighteen years, I think it was.

Tony:
09:38

And and yet, even though he never saw the healing in in terms of the ultimate way that he wanted, we saw him draw so close to God. And his faith in Jesus’ love was so wonderful. And he had an unshakable faith in the love of God and in the reality of the presence of God and things of that nature. The miracle in Andrew’s life is not that his symptoms went away or not that the root cause of the problem went away. He he told us, and we know some of these in vivid detail, he had eight times that he should have died.

Tony:
10:26

Mhmm. When he was, you know, in the early years of bipolar and the mania was out of control, and he was living a very wild life. And and there were eight times that he could have and probably should have died. Wow. And, you know, God spared his life time and time and time again.

Tony:
10:45

And there’s all kinds of intricacies, philosophical questions, theological questions. But we know two things. We know that we miss our son tremendously. We miss him deeply. Yeah.

Tony:
10:58

We also know that God is a good God. Yeah. And we know that he has been our comforter, our helper. That doesn’t mean we haven’t ached. That doesn’t mean we haven’t cried.

Tony:
11:10

Know, some of the things we brought out in the book is that, you know, Jesus said, blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted. Yes. Ecclesiastes, there’s a time to, you know, laugh and a time to cry. There’s all kinds of seasons of life and God is there for all seasons. You know, Jesus himself had his cousin, John the Baptist, brutally and senselessly murdered.

Charlie:
11:36

Yes.

Tony:
11:36

And when Jesus heard that, he went off to be by himself. Yes. You know, we we, of course, encourage not people not to go into long term isolation.

Charlie:
11:49

Right.

Tony:
11:50

But there’s something beautiful about some peaceful solitude. Yeah. And and Jesus wanted that solitude when when Paul had one of his young helpers, a guy named Epaphroditus in, Philippians chapter two, Paul wrote back to the church that had sent him to help. Paul was in under house arrest in Rome, and and the church of Philippi, which was always so kind and generous to Paul, they sent a young man to help. And for some reason, this young man got tremendously sick.

Tony:
12:23

Yeah. And Paul said, basically, he overworked. He, the Wuest translation of Philippians two, I don’t remember the verse, but he he says he recklessly exposed his life. Mhmm. And, you know, there are things.

Tony:
12:37

You know, the book of Proverbs talks about some things that we can do that will lengthen our life and some things we can do that will shorten our lives.

Charlie:
12:45

Mhmm.

Tony:
12:45

And then sometimes we don’t know exactly why. You know, I’ve heard of, you know, people that didn’t live some wonderful godly life at all and and that on their 100 birthday, somebody asked, how did you live so long? And Right. That’s a shot of whiskey every day. You know?

Tony:
13:02

And and, you know, and and then we see sometimes people like, you know, John the Baptist wasn’t super old when he was killed. You know, we we sometimes hear about Peter being miraculously delivered from prison in Acts chapter 12, but the two verses that open the chapter say that Herod killed James, the brother of John. And so why did Peter get miraculously delivered, and why did James die? We don’t know the answer to those things. And and, you know, sometimes the Lord really instructs us to leave certain things with him.

Tony:
13:43

You know? And I’ve told people before when they’re struggling with this question, why did my loved one die? You know, that if God shows you something that helps you and brings you peace, that’s great. But there’s a lot of things, so we just have to trust God. You know, the Bible says trust in the Lord with all your heart.

Charlie:
14:02

Mhmm.

Tony:
14:02

And don’t lean to your own understanding.

Charlie:
14:05

There you go.

Tony:
14:05

So sometimes our understanding is really limited. Even Paul who wrote, you know, tons of the New Testament said, now we see in part. We know in part, we prophesy in part. But he said there’s coming a day when we’re gonna know everything just as we are known. Yeah.

Tony:
14:25

So for us, and I know everybody’s got their journey and and not everybody goes through the same things. And, you know, depending on backgrounds and personalities and mindsets and depending on the relationship with the person who died, you know, what did they mean to us? You know, we can face so many variables. And that’s why it’s kind of important, you know, even if you know somebody that okay. So your mom died and my mom died.

Tony:
14:54

And so my you know, what’s easy for me to say is, well, I know just what you’re going through because my mom died too. Right. I don’t know what they’re going through. I know what I went through when my mom died, but my relationship with my mom may have been a thousand percent different than your relationship with your mom.

Charlie:
15:14

Right.

Tony:
15:14

So we have to be careful not to pigeonhole people, you know, not to try to put people in theological or emotional or even process type boxes. You know, everybody’s got their own journey to walk and they’re just so many variables. But I didn’t finish about Paul. The Philippian church sent Epaphroditis to help him and he got sick. And Paul said it was because, essentially, modern paraphrase, he overworked.

Charlie:
15:44

Mhmm. I

Tony:
15:45

think the King James, New King James says he did not regard his own life. Mhmm. So he didn’t take care of himself physically. Physically. Right.

Tony:
15:54

And and but we all know people who are in perfect shape Yeah. Who die. So it’s there one answer doesn’t fit everything.

Charlie:
16:02

Right.

Tony:
16:02

Right. You know, every situation has its own unique elements. But Paul said, if he had died, he said, God had mercy on him. Yes. Paul didn’t even say, my great faith got him healed.

Tony:
16:16

Right. Look out. Because we we pray and we exercise faith and trust in God and things like that. But Paul recognized this was just something of the mercy of God that came in and Epaphroditus recovered. But Paul said this, if he would have died, this is Paul speaking, he said, I would have had sorrow upon sorrow.

Tony:
16:40

And people sometimes think if you have faith, you’re not gonna have any tears. Well, they’re in heaven, so don’t feel bad. Right. Well, I I know they’re in heaven, but they’re not with me. Exactly.

Tony:
16:51

Somebody says somebody says, well, that’s selfish. Yeah. I hurt. Yeah. When I hurt, I’m selfish.

Charlie:
16:58

Right.

Tony:
16:58

And now it is important for me to move through that and at some point say, well, I’m hurting, but I have to rejoice with them.

Charlie:
17:09

Mhmm.

Tony:
17:10

Even though you might be mad at them, you know, if if whatever. You know, but but you still, you know, there there’s this journey that we we cover a lot of bases, and not everybody covers the bases in the same time sequence. Not everybody covers the bases in the same order. And and sometimes people miss a base. And and and that’s the, you know, god for us to heal.

Tony:
17:38

Somebody said this, you can’t you can’t fix a problem you don’t have. So if I’m really hurting, then it’s it it I don’t wanna pretend I don’t hurt. I wanna say, god, I hurt, and that’s not a negative confession. Mm-mm. Jesus, you came to heal the brokenhearted.

Tony:
17:59

If I say, Jesus, I’m fine, then Right. I’m not letting him be who he wants to be to me. He wants to heal the brokenhearted. And so I have to be honest and say, you know and sometimes that’s hard because we think other people are gonna judge us if if we’re still emotional about something or struggling with something and and that type of thing. And that is why you can’t necessarily be totally open with everybody because some people aren’t very safe.

Tony:
18:28

You know, some people aren’t very compassionate or empathic or you know, some people are going to be judgmental, that type of thing, and, you know, that’s their, that’s their journey, that’s their deal. But I I do wanna be around safe people Yes. That I can share where I’m hurting. You know, Paul was not afraid to share when he hurt. I mean, I don’t know anybody with more faith than Paul.

Tony:
18:55

Yeah. But he said, for example, in second Corinthians seven, he said, when we came into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest. We were troubled on every side. On the outside were fightings. On the inside were fears.

Tony:
19:12

I he I mean, you talk about a negative confession, man. Paul just Paul just blah. This is I’m having a lousy week right now. Yeah. But he you know what he said?

Tony:
19:23

He said, but god who comforts the downcast or encourages the discouraged as the New Living says. God who encourages the discouraged encouraged us. And isn’t it beautiful to know that when we’re hurting, when we’re disoriented, when we’re confused, when we’re saying, god, I don’t understand. You know, we we feel numb, you know, what the the multitudes of feelings that we can have, you know, through the journey and and the process that that god is not offended by our pain. The comforter is drawn to our pain

Charlie:
20:03

Yes.

Tony:
20:04

And and wants to help. And so, you know, I I didn’t there’s some things I I knew intellectually when I wrote the book because I’d listened to 50 people share their stories or 100 people share their stories. Yes. And and I just kind of synthesized that into what is the book, you know, life after death. But when you go through it personally, it’s a whole another deal.

Tony:
20:30

And Uh-huh. I mean, the things you know are helpful. And I’ve used this illustration that, if a knee surgeon, you know, he does knee replacements and he’s replaced one thousand knees, and, he can tell that patient, you know, the first week is gonna be like this, and and you’re gonna feel these things, and and this is what you need to do flexibility wise, rehab wise. And two weeks into it, it’s gonna be like this. And three weeks, he he may know all that stuff, and he he has told a thousand patients what what the the recovery is gonna be like.

Tony:
21:08

You have to watch out for this infection. You have to watch out for, you know, not doing enough rehab so your knee gets too stiff. He knows all those things. But when he gets his own knee replaced, it’s a whole another experience. It go it it it goes from being objective to being subjective.

Tony:
21:29

Mhmm. And it’s it’s you know, I found this, Charlie and Jill, in forty six years of ministry, the easiest thing in ministry is for me to tell how somebody else ought to do something. The hardest thing is for me to do it. Mhmm. And so, anyway, That is awesome.

Tony:
21:46

Tony.

Jill:
21:47

What a great comparison.

Charlie:
21:49

Yeah. You have shared so much in the last, whatever it was, fifteen minutes. Jill and I have this podcast every week, and we hit helping grieving hearts from so many angles, every angle we can come up with that the Lord gives us. Yet, you just, in a nutshell, just laid it all out just beautifully. And thank you so much for your transparency about where you’re at now and what you knew had knowledge, but what you’re experiencing even now and through the loss of your precious son, it just breaks our heart.

Charlie:
22:33

We were just so taken back by it because we’ve experienced But like you said, we’ve experienced it, but everybody experiences it a little bit And different I’ve got some of my closest friends, a couple of dear friends in St. Louis that one of them lost a daughter and the other one lost a son. We talk, we text, we get together, we cry. But, again, there’s always a little bit difference, you know, in the journeys. But there are a lot of the same too, a lot of things that are very similar that people go through.

Charlie:
23:11

But, but Tony, you, you have been such a, an amazing example to us. When we first lost Bovee, w like you said in the faith camp, which is what we’re graduates of Rhema Bible Training Center. We’ve been very close friends with Andrew and Jamie Womack, great men and women of faith, loving, kind, understanding. And yet, like we said in our book, battled, we lost on two fronts. It’s hard enough to lose a child or lose a loved one, period.

Charlie:
23:45

But on the other hand, we lost everything we ever believed in. We lost our faith in God. We lost, you know, all the principles that we cut our teeth on, that we declared, that we preached, that we sang, that we wrote songs about, you know? We lost all of that. It was just, we were kind of like lost.

Jill:
24:05

It’s like what you said, complicated grief. Yeah. That was totally where And we were

Charlie:
24:11

our heart breaks for people that go through that, but we understand. We went through that very complicated grief. And like you said, we’ve got others that aren’t from our background that have had losses, and they’re broken, and they’re hurting, and they’re missing their loved one, but they don’t have that side of it where they stood and believed and fought and just, you know,

Tony:
24:34

and we

Charlie:
24:35

just lost a dear close friend of ours, 65 years old, mother of four, two of them, four grandkids. Anyway, the perfect life. Bible college directors with Andrew Womack, beautiful couple. They lived here in Jacksonville. Some of our best friends battled cancer for two years, breast cancer, and took her out less than a year ago.

Charlie:
25:00

Less than a year ago now. And, again, it’s one of those things where, you know, what happened? What’s what’s up? You know, and and we see it all the time. And and it’s not to say that Jesus isn’t a healer.

Charlie:
25:14

We know he is. And I I Right. It took me a long time to get back to reading the gospels and seeing Jesus heal so many It took me a long time to read the red letters because I couldn’t reconcile that. My heart and my brain couldn’t handle it. But I’ll just say one more thing, I just want you to take off again because I don’t wanna take all your time.

Charlie:
25:37

But you said it so beautifully, but it’s like I had to come to a place where I said, I have to, to move forward in life, I’m gonna have to move forward with the things that I know and leave the things I don’t understand on a shelf. But gonna move forward with what I know, and I know God is good. I know he loves me. I know he’s a healer of broken hearts, according to the word, and he comforts those who mourn. And so those it was simple.

Charlie:
26:13

That’s all I could handle at the time. He’s a loving God, and he heals broken hearts, and he comforts those who mourn. I’ll take that, Lord. I need that. I don’t understand anything else about the Bible, anything else about my theology, but I’m gonna take that, and I’m gonna breathe my next breath with that.

Charlie:
26:32

I’m gonna pray my next prayer with that. Jill and I, we both grieved differently in our journey, and and it was it was tougher for her in some areas than it was for me, tougher for me in some areas that it wasn’t for her. And so that’s also a balancing act, in in when you and your wife are grieving, your daughter’s grieving. And it’s a very complicated journey that we’re not taught enough about it in Bible school generally. We’re praying we get to teach a class at Andrews on this because I just feel people need need it so desperately.

Charlie:
27:13

But anyway, I’ve given you maybe a few more, ideas and and fuel for thoughts, but I’ll let you know You’re off just so annoyed and such a great preacher.

Tony:
27:23

You’re kind. There’s two major things you said that I wanna camp on for a moment. First of all, you talked about the difference between what we know and what we don’t know. It’s clear. I mean, obviously, we know that we don’t know everything.

Tony:
27:38

Yes. I quoted this earlier, and I’ll say it again. Paul said, the guy who wrote bunches of the New Testament, he said, we know in part. Yes. So even when we talk about, well, this is my theology.

Tony:
27:53

This is I have to be humble enough to say, this is how I see things, but I may not see everything there is to see. Maybe I have a blind spot. Maybe I have a misperception. And so I can’t be so arrogant in my theology. Now now some people would say, well, the Bible says to be fully persuaded.

Tony:
28:15

And, yeah, I get that. I I appreciate that. But at the same time, does being fully persuaded mean that we are omniscient? No. Paul said, we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Tony:
28:32

That’s right. And so I have to, I’m not trying to leave wiggle room for doubt, wiggle room for unbelief, but I’m just saying we have to be humble enough to know that we don’t know everything.

Charlie:
28:44

Well, Tony, so Forgive me for interrupting, but I just have to say this. I just read just yesterday, I think it was in James where it says, Your life is a vapor. Don’t say you’re gonna go do this and do that and do that. Say, If the Lord wills, I’ll do this and And we’re so big on just like confessing our future and believing God. And I do that and I will continue to do that.

Charlie:
29:09

At the same time, there needs to be, like you’re saying, a degree of humility that says, but God, you’re you’re you’re the head of of my life, and I’m giving it all to you. Mhmm. So

Tony:
29:20

Yeah. When Lisa and I, our daughter was born in 1983. Our son was born in 1986. And in between there, we had a miscarriage. Mhmm.

Tony:
29:34

And I I do talk about that a little bit in the book because that was a loss. Mhmm. Absolutely. My wife felt that much deeper than I did because she had been carrying that little one. Even though for a few months, to her, my my wife, if you well, you guys know her, but she is the ultimate tender hearted Tender, sweetest.

Tony:
29:54

Yes. She’s the sweetest person when I mean, she is the mother hen, you know, over her children, born and unborn. Yes. And so when she when she experienced the miscarriage, she felt it really deeply and carried it for a a good while. I didn’t feel it so deeply.

Tony:
30:18

I I felt sad. I I was disappointed. And sometimes people say, well, that’s the difference between a guy and a girl or a man and a woman. And sometimes that’s true, but not always. I I know I know men who are very emotional, and and and I know women who are very black and white.

Charlie:
30:38

Right.

Tony:
30:39

You know? But but it’s that’s not the norm. That’s not the norm as much. I’ll let you explain whatever you want to later. But, you know, I realized that when when we experienced that miscarriage, Lisa wanted to talk about it a lot.

Tony:
30:59

To me, it was kind of like it happened. We can’t change it. Let’s go on and that type of thing. And and I didn’t understand at that point that I really needed to honor her process and honor her timetable

Charlie:
31:15

Yes.

Tony:
31:15

That I couldn’t I couldn’t take my way of dealing with it, which was pretty cut and dried, and just, you know, lay hands on her and make her feel the same way. And but but I did feel I I’m not trying to say I didn’t feel anything or I didn’t have any emotion about it. I did. And I remember praying about it, and I was a little bit perturbed that it happened, a little bit. God, why did this happen?

Tony:
31:38

And and I’m serving you, and I’m preaching,

Charlie:
31:42

and I’m faith.

Tony:
31:43

You know? Mhmm. I don’t know. There’s no sin in my life, you know, I’m aware of. Why did this happen?

Tony:
31:50

And and, honestly, I didn’t get any clear answers. I didn’t get any angelic visitation or audible voices. And but I here’s here’s what I had to do. And, again, this may be different for everybody. But I had to I had I came to the point where I said, god, I’m not getting an answer on this.

Tony:
32:09

I don’t have an answer on this. And, you know, if you want to tell me why this happened, I’m all ears, but I’m gonna quit pursuing it because you haven’t shown me. Maybe you’ll show me in heaven when I get to heaven. Maybe I won’t care when I get to heaven. But but I’ve got to focus on something.

Tony:
32:31

I can’t keep remember when god told Moses, you guys have circled this mountain long enough? And and and and and and I don’t think we should try to we we shouldn’t try to say it to somebody else. Well, it’s been three days, and you’re still asking questions. Stop it. You know?

Tony:
32:47

No. You gotta give people their time to Exactly. Yeah. So but but when I came to the point where I felt I have circled this mountain long enough, nobody else told me that. I felt like I had circled that mountain long enough.

Tony:
33:02

I said, God, there’s two things in this situation that I I’m dealing with. Number one is what I know. God is good. Jesus loves me. If all you can do is sing Jesus loves me, this I know for the bible.

Tony:
33:18

If that’s the all if everything else has been stripped away and you’re disoriented and you’re discombobulated and all that, and the only thing you can do is sing Jesus loves me, this I know, then sing Jesus loves me, this I know, and let him comfort you with that. Mhmm.

Jill:
33:36

But I

Tony:
33:36

but I said, you know, here’s here’s the category. This is what I know. God is good. God is faithful. God loves me.

Tony:
33:44

God cares for us. And here’s what I don’t know. I don’t know why this happened. You know, I don’t know, you know, at all based on, you know, not understanding and that type of thing. And, again, we have to go back to Proverbs.

Tony:
33:56

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and don’t lean to your own understanding.

Charlie:
34:01

Yeah.

Tony:
34:01

Our trust can go farther than our understanding will go because our understanding can be very limited. Mhmm. And the same thing in Philippians chapter four where Paul said, you know, be anxious for nothing and and and, I can’t remember the whole verse now, but he said, and the peace of God which passes understanding. So peace and trust can be higher than what we understand.

Charlie:
34:32

That’s good.

Tony:
34:33

So so unless I’m saying, God, my brain and my understanding is really god to me. So if you can’t help me understand, then I’m not gonna trust you, and I’m not gonna have any peace.

Charlie:
34:48

Oh my.

Tony:
34:50

So there comes that point where we have to say, God, I’m gonna trust you even though I don’t understand. Mhmm. Lord, I’m gonna open my heart to your peace even though I don’t understand.

Charlie:
35:00

Mhmm.

Tony:
35:01

Because Solomon and and Peter both or Paul both said that peace and trust can surpass our level of understanding.

Charlie:
35:08

Yeah. I love that. And, you know, like you mentioned in Corinthians, you know, we see through a glass darkly, you know, and then face to face. There’s another scripture, maybe you can help me out with this. I don’t know if I take this out of context or not, but it’s the one that says the secret things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed are for you and your children.

Charlie:
35:31

And you know, again, I don’t like to make God out this mysterious guy that’s holding back stuff from us and everything, because he’s a personal, loving, kind father, a comforter, you know, just wonderful. We’re one with him. He’s, he’s an incredible, companion through life, you know, father and Jesus is our brother and the Holy Spirit is our helper. But life is complicated and our relationship with him, with God is deep. And, I have one friend who calls it, there are mysteries that we won’t really fully understand till we get to heaven because it’s so amazing.

Charlie:
36:11

So I think we just have to live, especially when we go through these kinds of tragedies, the loss of a loved one, the miscarriage, things that, like you say, circling the mountain, that’s kind of what I came to. I just said that I can’t go on this way. If I’m gonna live forward, then I’m gonna have to live in what I know. I’m gonna have to live with things that I can understand, but not get just totally wrapped up in what I don’t understand because that’s

Tony:
36:46

just Exactly.

Charlie:
36:46

You just get frozen. You get locked in that kind of situation.

Tony:
36:51

Yeah. Well, the verse you quoted, Deuteronomy 2nine 29, is so clear, and you quoted it exactly right.

Charlie:
37:00

Didn’t know if I took it out of context or not, but I think it’s

Tony:
37:03

always it’s helped me. You know? Yeah. The secret things belong to the Lord. What is that telling us?

Tony:
37:11

That tells us that there are some things that God doesn’t show us. Right. That he doesn’t tell us everything. I I part of part of my privilege of being a child of God is not a license to omniscience. You know, it doesn’t mean I’m entitled to know everything.

Charlie:
37:31

Yes.

Tony:
37:32

The things that are revealed, it says the secret things belong to the Lord. So there are some things that God’s not gonna show us till we get to heaven. And, you know, the things that we think we want to know now. I wanna know why this. I wanna know why that.

Tony:
37:48

Probably when we see him, we won’t even think about

Charlie:
37:51

those things. Wait, guys. I said that, dude.

Tony:
37:53

We’re up

Charlie:
37:53

in heaven. I’m gonna talk to God about this. Yeah. When you get to heaven, you’re gonna just be like, oh my gosh.

Tony:
37:59

Now now they bother us, then they won’t. But but the second part of that verse, but the things which are revealed. Yeah. And and Christianity is entirely a revealed faith. You know, everything we know has been revealed to us.

Tony:
38:17

Mhmm. You know, the law was a revelation. Mhmm. You know? I know we don’t live by the law, and we’re not saved by the law, certainly, keeping the law.

Tony:
38:27

But but then Jesus was revealed from heaven. Yes. The the teaching of the New Testament was revealed.

Charlie:
38:34

Praise god.

Tony:
38:35

So these are not things you’re gonna figure out with your own brain, or I’m gonna figure out with my own brain. But he says the things which are revealed belong to us. So, again, it goes there’s things we don’t know, the secret things. There’s things we do know, the things which are revealed, belong to us and to our children that we may walk in them. Right.

Tony:
38:57

And so our job is to say, Lord, what what have you shown me about this? Because we wanna read in the Bible because maybe there’s obviously things in the bible that address that.

Charlie:
39:08

Mhmm.

Tony:
39:09

But but but we walk in the light of what we know. And sometimes, Charlie, I think Yes. If we think that knowing certain things is gonna make all the difference, it’s not. Mhmm. I heard another grief counselor say this, you know, about people, I just wanna know why this happened.

Tony:
39:28

I wanna know why this happened. And he said, imagine you break your leg, and you’re sitting, you know, lying in the hospital bed, you know, either you’ve had the surgery, you’re about to have the surgery to get your leg fixed, plates, whatever, screws. And you say to the doctor, Doctor, I want to know why this happened. And the doctor looks at you and says, Well, you fell. And the angle of your leg when when your body weight came onto it, you know, the physics of the pressure, you know, caused the bone to snap.

Tony:
40:09

That’s why it happened. Is that really gonna make you feel any better? Yeah. You know? Just fix it.

Tony:
40:15

We we yep. So so a lot of times, we’re asking the question why, and God is wanting us to ask the question, what? What do we need what do we do now?

Charlie:
40:27

Yes.

Tony:
40:27

What do what do I need to know Yes. To begin to receive comfort and healing?

Charlie:
40:33

Yes.

Tony:
40:34

God, what do you want me to do with my life? My life has drastically changed. A major part of my life, a major part of my focus, it’s not there anymore.

Charlie:
40:45

Right.

Tony:
40:46

And I feel this emptiness. I feel this void. And and I don’t understand things. But, God, what do you want me to do today? And and if I can share one verse

Charlie:
40:58

with Oh, absolutely. You Please. Please. This is your pulpit, brother.

Tony:
41:01

It it’s kind of an obscure verse, but it’s in Genesis chapter 33. And you talked about taking verses out of context. Am absolutely am

Charlie:
41:13

so gonna take this

Tony:
41:14

verse out of context. Yes. I’m really not taking it out of context so much as I’m simply making an application.

Charlie:
41:21

Mhmm.

Tony:
41:22

But when Jacob and Esau had this, you remember that story, they had this super and boy, I just hit something on my computer. Let me I shouldn’t leave my bible on my computer when I’m recording here. Jacob and Esau had this terrible falling out. Yeah. And and, you know, this is one of the things we look at, the strain that grief can place on a couple.

Tony:
41:49

Mhmm. You know, if the man is processing it one way, at one speed, and, you know, because we all have different grief clocks.

Charlie:
41:57

Right.

Tony:
41:58

And for example, in the miscarriage, I couldn’t hurry my wife’s grief clock up. And sometimes we wanna hurry somebody else’s grief clock up because we don’t wanna deal we don’t wanna be uncomfortable.

Charlie:
42:12

Right.

Tony:
42:12

With their grief. And that’s where we need to learn to weep with those that weep and, you know, Oh God. That type of thing opposed to just, hey, your tears make me uncomfortable. So, know, praise God your loved ones in heaven and let’s not go like this anymore.

Charlie:
42:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Tony:
42:28

You know, that type of thing. Yeah. But so Jacob and Esau had this horrible falling out. And when Jacob finally reunited with Esau, he thought Esau would probably kill him. Yeah.

Tony:
42:41

But that wasn’t Esau’s heart. Mm-mm. But they got together and Esau said, let’s go Jacob, let’s go to this city. And, you know, the implication is he said in Genesis thirty three twelve, well Esau said, let’s be going, I will lead the way. But Jacob replied, you can see, my lord, that some of the children are very young, and the flocks and herds have their young also.

Tony:
43:19

If they are driven too hard, even for one day, all the animals could die. Please, my lord, you go ahead of your servant. You go on. You go at your timetable. We will follow slowly at a pace that is comfortable for the livestock and the children, and then I’ll meet you there.

Charlie:
43:47

Wow.

Tony:
43:47

And see, sometimes in our Christian lives, we get driven. We get pushed Ugh. Based on other people’s expectations.

Charlie:
43:55

Ugh.

Tony:
43:55

And, you know, people think you know, I remember in in my book, I interviewed tons of people for it and had them write out their testimonies. And one person this is in the book. It’s one of the testimonies. They said, I went to my pastor when my mom or brother or sister, somebody died, And the pastor’s wife said, well, you can grieve for two weeks. Anything after that is selfishness.

Jill:
44:20

My gosh.

Tony:
44:22

And see, this is, Esau said, we’re gonna go and I’m, you’re gonna follow me. You’re gonna go with my pace.

Charlie:
44:31

Mhmm.

Tony:
44:31

And Jacob had the wisdom to say, hey. I’ve got some young. I’ve got some children, some livestock, and I cannot drive them. Yes. Wow.

Tony:
44:42

Know, it’s the it’s the taskmaster of Egypt. It was the taskmasters that drove the people, you know, to try to meet these goals, meet these deadlines. But it’s the shepherd that leads at a pace that is peaceful. Wow. The shepherd gathers the young in his arms.

Tony:
45:01

Yes. And so, you know, if anybody’s watching and maybe they feel pressure from other people, you know, you should be farther along by now or, you know, you shouldn’t still be, you know, whatever. I mean, we all wanna make progress. We all wanna, you know, feel like we’re doing better as time goes on, but don’t rush. Don’t rush the gentle work of the Holy Spirit in each person’s heart.

Tony:
45:29

And I liked what Jacob said. He he said, I will lead on slowly at a pace that the children and the livestock can survive.

Charlie:
45:39

Yeah. Well, have so many yeah. So many thoughts about that. Jill, tell him a little bit about the pastor, what he told us the the at the funeral in our house about our marriage and so forth.

Jill:
45:51

You go ahead.

Charlie:
45:52

I’m trying to get Jill to talk a little bit.

Jill:
45:55

Go right

Charlie:
45:55

Anyway. So, yeah, this pastor came up to us and he just said, basically, he said, Charlie and Jill, listen, I can’t imagine what you’re going through, he said, but I just wanted to give you a little nugget. He said, a lot of marriages don’t survive the loss of a child. He said, because of everything that you’re talking about, the impatience with each other and the misunderstandings. And you know, you’ve got two people hurting.

Charlie:
46:23

I mean, I was devastatedly hurting. Jill’s hurting. My tendency is to go to her when I’m hurting to help me and vice versa. You know, if I’m having a bad day today, you know, she’ll just she’ll she’ll love on me or she’ll rip me into shape, one of the two, you know? So or vice versa.

Charlie:
46:41

So that was some great advice for us. He said, Be careful. The enemy is going to try to destroy your marriage. Just be very patient with each other, very loving, and just realize that you both are going to grieve in different ways. We sat down after that and talked about it, and we said, Listen, we’re committed that we’re not going to let that happen to us.

Charlie:
47:07

Nice, that’s good. We’re going to give each other grace. We’re going to minister to each other. We’re going to love each other. Even if it’s hard, we’re going to do that.

Charlie:
47:14

And I mean, there were times when I was grieving. I’m having a tough day, and I would be biting at her. She would ask me something, then I realized, said, Wait, babe, I want you to know I’m having a tough day. I’m thinking about Bovee. I’m grieving hard.

Charlie:
47:28

Please, none of this is directed to you. It’s my personal battle inside. If I am sharp with you, please forgive me, you know? We that’s did that, and that really, really helped us. And you know, the other thing that I thought of when you said that about everybody has their own personal journey, and, you know, we should never be rushing people.

Charlie:
47:54

I mean, we have we have so many that have had lost loved ones, you know, where, you know, you haven’t taken their clothes out of the closet yet. What’s wrong with You know, clean it out. You know, a brother or a sister will come and visit and say,

Jill:
48:07

what are

Charlie:
48:07

you doing? You know, you, you got and pushing them along, you know, a loving, close friend can do that, maybe, if, if you give them permission, if you go to them and say, hey, I’m stuck. I need some help. Can you help me? Yeah.

Charlie:
48:22

Then, yes, you’ve been given permission, and they can go in and start doing stuff like that. But to come in and start demanding, like you say, like Esau, you know, come with me. Come follow me. You know, I’m gonna take you. But, you know, Jacob was smart enough to say, hey, I gotta go.

Charlie:
48:39

I gotta go. I love that. I just read that recently in scripture and I did not see that aspect of it. It really, really touched me. But I want to say one more thing, I’m going cut you loose again because it is so good hearing what you have to say.

Charlie:
48:55

One thing the Lord spoke to us about a year and a half after Beau passed, a close friend of ours lost their son. And we were in England, actually. And, and we knew we would be back the following Sunday.

Tony:
49:10

Mhmm.

Charlie:
49:10

And so we called them. We wept with them. We our hearts were broken with them. And then we said, listen, we’ll be back on particular day. You want us to come and be with you on Sunday morning to help you.

Charlie:
49:23

And this was like the second Sunday, I think, after their son had passed. He said, Please come, please. I just need help. Come and take the whole service. Just do whatever you want to do.

Charlie:
49:34

And I said, Okay, we’ll do it. Because out of compassion, I said, We’ll But do driving to the church that Sunday morning, about an hour south of where we lived, I’m thinking, what did I commit to? I don’t know what to say. I’m still crying three times a week over Beau. I’m just gonna get in the pulpit and just cry.

Charlie:
49:57

And I just started praying in the spirit, and Jill and I were praying on the way. I’m thinking this stuff. And all of sudden, the spirit of God dropped in my heart, he said, Charlie, simply tell the people, you do the lovin’ and I’ll do the fixing. And that was just a powerful word to us. I preached the heck out of that that morning.

Charlie:
50:19

I just told the congregation, listen, don’t try to fix your pastor and his wife. Your job is to love, to love, to embrace, to help in whatever way you can, but don’t be coming with your favorite scriptures and try to fix them and try to tell them the way they need to move forward.

Tony:
50:37

Right.

Charlie:
50:38

You know, that is so, so wrong and so, so unneeded right now. What they need is love and patience and kindness. Tony, you know, you guys have just have this fresh wound of the loss of your son. And, and, you know, have and and, of course, you have such a large family of of of pastors and ministers and friends. And possibly like us, you may have gotten some texts, some phone calls, some letters that really ministered to you.

Tony:
51:17

Very much.

Charlie:
51:18

But did you also get some of those that that we did where it it was just like, thanks. You know?

Jill:
51:27

It just yeah.

Charlie:
51:28

Thanks a lot. You know, like

Jill:
51:29

Trying to fix it.

Charlie:
51:30

Don’t forget, brother. Your your son’s in heaven and you’re gonna be okay. You know? You’re gonna be all right. We’ve had some people, we had some one guy say, I feel like you’re about 80% through this.

Charlie:
51:40

Yeah, you’re about 80% healed right now. He say, you have no clue where I’m at. Stuff like that. So comment on on maybe Yeah. What people say, what they shouldn’t say, what they you know, what you’ve experienced even.

Tony:
51:53

Yeah. Well, we did have some super, super precious

Charlie:
51:57

Oh.

Tony:
51:57

Text and letters and calls and cards and things like that.

Charlie:
52:02

Of

Tony:
52:02

course. You know, some of which we’ve tucked away. You know, other people we we understand Yeah. That people very often, they don’t know what to say. Exactly.

Tony:
52:13

They’re they wanna say something. They they, and sometimes, Charlie, like you going to that church, you know, the Lord told you, you love them. I’ll fix them. Yeah. Sometimes we feel like we have to fix people.

Tony:
52:27

Yes. That it’s our job to, you know, give them some kind of immediate anesthetic to make the pain stop. Right. And often that’s because we’re uncomfortable with their pain. You said that.

Tony:
52:38

And, so we got a few things, not too many that were kinda like, okay, I

Jill:
52:42

know you mean well, but that really, we could have

Tony:
52:44

gone all week without hearing that. Know, we had a few things like that. But we’ve been around this for so long that we kind of were kind of pre predisposed to be very gracious. And if people said dumb stuff or whatever, we just thank you. You we we know you love us.

Tony:
53:04

Thank you so much. And and just go on and not. Yeah. Yeah. You know?

Tony:
53:08

We we didn’t have anything horrifically outrageous, you know, that was said.

Charlie:
53:12

That’s a

Tony:
53:12

Few things that were irritating. But Yeah. So, you know, I I think, you know, people presuming, know, like the guy that said to you, I think you’re 80% through. And you say, how does he know what? You know, people presume.

Tony:
53:29

And, you know, some of the some of the best things that were said to us were, we we don’t know what to say, but but we love you. You know? Exactly. It wasn’t like there’s some magic phrase that if you just tell me these this if you give me this insight

Charlie:
53:45

Yes.

Tony:
53:45

Then all my pain is gonna go away.

Charlie:
53:47

Right.

Tony:
53:47

And that doesn’t exist. There’s no magic wands. There’s no quick fixes. No. There is.

Tony:
53:52

You know, one one friend sent a deal. And see, he and I there see, there were years when, you know, Andrew really was, you know, not doing well. And then there were many years where he’s doing great with the Lord. You know, still battled some of the mental conditions and things like that. But this pastor’s son, he and I let’s just say it this way.

Tony:
54:18

He and I prayed for each other’s sons.

Charlie:
54:20

Oh, yeah.

Tony:
54:21

Because his son was going through tons of garbage and, you know, that type of thing. But but he just sent me a text and said, hey, Tony. Only heaven is gonna make sense of any of this. And that was just so for some reason, that just hit me in such a comforting way. Yeah.

Tony:
54:39

And maybe it was more maybe it was more our shared journey. Yes. Than it was just the profundity of those exact words. Yeah. You know, I encourage people.

Tony:
54:51

I have a chapter in the book called How to Help and Not Hurt. And I go over some of those things, you know, about, you know, what do you say? What don’t you say? You know, that kind of thing. And I I I one of the things and I don’t think this is original with me, but somebody said, you know, ten years from now, people aren’t gonna remember what you said.

Tony:
55:12

And there may be an exception to that. Somebody may have just said some powerful statement, and you’ll never forget those words. But generally speaking, you don’t remember what somebody said, but you remember how they made you feel. You know? Did they make you feel loved, comforted, assured, you know, that type of thing.

Tony:
55:35

And so I encourage people

Charlie:
55:37

Oh, good.

Tony:
55:38

You know, if you’re gonna air air on the side of brevity That’s good. You know, don’t you know, when somebody’s just lost a loved one, that’s not the time to go into you know, that’s what the book of Job is. You know, Job lost I mean, just the the unimaginable loss that Job experienced. 10 children, Oh. You know?

Tony:
56:00

All at once. His his economic empire, his health, his mental well-being. Wow. Everything. Job, you know, just experienced an unimaginable level of loss.

Tony:
56:12

And he had three friends that came from a distance, and it says, and they saw his grief was so great that they just sat with him. Yes. And didn’t say a word. Yes. I think that’s that’s one of the best examples of what we today call the ministry of presence.

Tony:
56:28

Or incarnational ministry. And then Job opened up his mouth and cursed the day he died and, you know, went on this, you know, long you know? And at the end of the book of Job, Job says, God, I didn’t know what I was saying. Yeah. After God revealed himself, and God really revealed himself to Job through nature.

Charlie:
56:53

Mhmm.

Tony:
56:53

You know, God Job, where were you when I spread out the heavens? And, you know, where were you when I did this? And it’s all about creation.

Jill:
57:01

And Mhmm.

Tony:
57:01

Paul says that creation is one of the ways that God reveals himself to us about how majestic and

Charlie:
57:08

Yes.

Tony:
57:08

Powerful and awesome he is. Yes. And so God reveals himself after Job was very self righteous and different things. He said some good things. He said some goofy things.

Tony:
57:19

But he didn’t have a Bible. He didn’t have the the he couldn’t open up the New Testament and Right. See what we know today. Right. And then at the end of the book of Job, God told Job, he said, I want you pray after Job had said, God, I said things I didn’t know, I didn’t understand.

Tony:
57:39

And then God said, yeah, and I want you to pray for your friends because they’ve said things about me that are not right.

Charlie:
57:46

Right.

Tony:
57:47

So basically at the end of the book of Job, what you have is a theological argument between four people who didn’t know what they were talking about. Job said, I don’t know what I’m talking about. And God said, no, neither do your friends. Exactly. And so but but it it is a lesson.

Tony:
58:05

You know, one of the major lessons of the book of Job is how not to treat a friend who’s in grief. Yeah. Because when when Job said wrong stuff and all that, that Job, you’re a sinner. You know, you’re not being punished nearly as much as you should be and and all that. I mean, it’s it’s a real lesson in how not to treat a friend that is hurting.

Tony:
58:25

That’s so true. Yes. And, you know, when you’ve got a you’re trying to prove who’s right. You’re wrong. I’m right.

Tony:
58:31

Listen, when somebody’s just lost a loved one, I don’t care what they say. They need love. They don’t need a theology lesson. Typically, you know, maybe later, at the right time. But, you know, in the Talmud, which is the it’s a rabbinic commentary on the Old Testament.

Tony:
58:51

In the Talmud, it says, hold no man accountable for what he says in his grief. Wow. Don’t hold anyone accountable for what they say in their griefs.

Charlie:
59:02

Wow. That’s good.

Tony:
59:03

And and and that means we have to cut people some slack. You know? And and sometimes people vent. We may not like what they say. We you know, if I go to somebody who’s lost a loved one and and maybe their coping mechanism at that moment, I’m not gonna say, you know, God needed your loved one in heaven more than he needed them here on earth.

Tony:
59:26

I’m not gonna say God plucked a flower from his earthly garden and replanted it in his heavenly I’m not gonna say that. No. But if so if somebody says to me, brother Cooke, I just feel like God plucked up my loved one from his earthly garden and replanted him in the heavenly garden, I’m gonna say, and your loved one is a beautiful flower. Exactly. Know?

Tony:
59:49

I I’m not gonna contradict them. That is not the time to try to correct somebody’s theology. That’s the time to put your arms around them, love them. You know? You know?

Tony:
01:00:01

So in all communication, there’s three elements. One is content, what you say. One is timing, which is when you say it. And the third is tact, how you say it. Oh.

Tony:
01:00:14

And, you know, there there are just some pastoral skills. They’re friendship skills.

Charlie:
01:00:20

Mhmm.

Tony:
01:00:20

That know, you know, there’s a time to speak and a time to keep silent. Right. And, you know Beautiful. Sometimes when people are in deep grief, that’s not the time to be speaking a lot.

Charlie:
01:00:31

Mhmm. That is so true. Yeah. Yeah. I was, with a friend, that lost his son.

Charlie:
01:00:39

Actually, his son and my son were best of friends. And nine year and and this couple helped Jill and I so much when we lost Bovee. I mean, they were at the house. They waited for the hearse to come and pick up his body. We couldn’t be there.

Charlie:
01:00:59

He was at home when he died. We couldn’t handle that. They cleaned up our house. I mean, they did so much for us. They’re a precious couple to this day.

Charlie:
01:01:08

Nine years later, their son dies instantly. And so, it’s funny, we talked about this earlier. So I felt like, well, we’re going to be there for them. And we were. We were there to help them as best we could.

Charlie:
01:01:23

But again, he was just livid, angry, and just, you know, and I could just tell it was just, I just had to let him go for it. Yeah. About a year later, we went to visit them and I went to his house and I thought, well, surely I’ll have something I need to share with him because I’ve experienced this. And I went there and I was just like He just started talking, and I didn’t have anything to say. I was lost, and I just sat there and listened, listened, and just, Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Charlie:
01:01:59

Oh, I’m so sorry. And anyway, we had a beautiful evening together and we left. On the way home, I’m beating myself up, and I’m thinking, I should have said this. I should have said why didn’t I say this? And then I get a text from him, and he says, Charlie, thank you so much for coming and visiting with us, and especially thank you for listening.

Tony:
01:02:20

Yeah, that’s a great gift. Listening.

Charlie:
01:02:23

And I was like, here I was beating myself up because I didn’t say quote enough, but the listening factor, the power of just Because people who are grieving, they just need to talk. They need to grieve. In fact, I was looking at that scripture of, you know, pure religion, visit orphans and widows in their distress. Yeah. Widows in their distress.

Charlie:
01:02:49

I mean, when you’re distressed, you’re gonna talk. You’re gonna share. You’re gonna cry. You’re gonna you’re we’re to visit them. We’re to love them.

Tony:
01:02:56

We’re to listen. We’re to not try

Charlie:
01:02:58

to fix them. And, so anyway, there there’s just so much. Jill, you got something there. It looked like you had. It’s gone now.

Jill:
01:03:05

Stop trying to make me talk. Stop trying to make her talk.

Charlie:
01:03:10

But boy, you’ve just shared so many nuggets I just know are gonna help people so much that are listening to this podcast. And your book, I wanna mention it again, Life After Death. And I love the twist here, rediscovering life after the loss of a loved one. And at first, the title was Life After Death. So I know my son’s alive.

Charlie:
01:03:41

I know he’s in heaven, but that’s not helping me. But I love the subtitle, Rediscovering Your Life After the Loss of a Loved One, because that’s what it’s all about. You gotta figure out how you’re gonna live, how are you gonna move on? Are gonna let this thing take you out? You know, because it can.

Charlie:
01:04:05

It wants to. Know, I remember when Jesus told Peter, he says, Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I pray that your faith fail not, because Jesus saw what was gonna about to happen to him. And, you know, I know that the enemy was trying to totally destroy Jill and I take away because, you know, obviously every Christian is hated by the devil and the enemy does not want us to make it, to help others. So, I just knew that we needed to figure out how to move forward. And by God’s amazing love, amazing grace, amazing patience, amazing comfort, little by little, step upon step, little bit here, a little bit there, you know, we got a little bit better every day.

Charlie:
01:04:59

Tony, our hearts are with you, with you just being twenty three, twenty four weeks out. Mean, you’ve been putting your book, that one theologian said, Well, after so many months, you’ll be this way. After a couple of years, you’ll be this way. It’s just like, there is no formula, bottom is it’s hard. It’s not an easy journey.

Charlie:
01:05:27

And you tackled the scripture as we did in our book, that we don’t grieve like those who have no hope. Yeah. And thankfully, it doesn’t mean we don’t grieve, but address that like you did

Tony:
01:05:42

in

Charlie:
01:05:42

the We have hope.

Tony:
01:05:43

Yeah. Hallelujah. Well, that was one of the things that really inspired me is I got so mad when I heard certain preachers say, the Bible says grieve not. Yeah. Period.

Tony:
01:05:54

Right. And I thought I thought, no. It doesn’t say that. Right. And but I saw because I saw people hurt from that.

Tony:
01:06:02

Yes. People people were suppressing and repressing because they thought, you know, I’m not supposed to grieve, period. And and, like, you you just quoted it accurately. Paul said first Thessalonians four, I don’t want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep or have died, that you grieve not even as others who have no hope. Right.

Tony:
01:06:29

He didn’t say don’t grieve. He said don’t grieve in the same way as a person who has no hope. Right. And so we grieve, but our grief is infused with comfort. Our grief is not infused with fatalism, pessimism, cynicism.

Tony:
01:06:54

Our great our grief is infused with hope. And and that’s the rest of what Paul says there in first Thessalonians four. And and so as much as we realize, you know, I guess you can do one or two things. You know, you lose a loved one, and you can just think, okay. I’m just I’m I’m not gonna think about anything negative.

Tony:
01:07:16

I’m just gonna think about heaven. You could do that. Or you could say, well, I just lost a loved one, and all I can do is look at the pain of the here and now and what we’ve been through. And the Bible doesn’t really say it’s not an either or, it’s a both and. You know, Paul said, I would have had sorrow upon sorrow.

Tony:
01:07:36

He doesn’t deny the reality of the sorrow. Right. But but in other places, Paul talks about, you know, that death is not the end. Right. That second Corinthians chapter five, for example.

Tony:
01:07:47

You know the great verse, we walk by faith and not by sight? You know, I’ve heard hundreds of preachers teach that about finances and teach that about healing. And Paul was not talking about finances or healing when he said we walk by faith or not by sight. Now I suppose you can take the principle Sure. Because there are other scriptures that kind of deal with that.

Tony:
01:08:09

But the context, what Paul was talking about was to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Wow. He was talking about physical death.

Charlie:
01:08:20

Wow.

Tony:
01:08:21

He was talking about if our outward man perishes, we have a building, you know, made from made by God, eternal in the heavens. You know? I I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. We walk by faith, not by sight. So so, you know, we we kinda have to it it’s kinda like some people wanna deal with everything naturally.

Tony:
01:08:45

Some people wanna deal with everything spiritually. I find the people that do the best in life are people who face the natural head on even when it’s not pleasant, and people that also embrace the promise of the spiritual, the eternal realities. So it’s not either or. It’s not the the pain of death or the glory of heaven. It’s both.

Tony:
01:09:08

We we feel the pain of a loved one departing because we miss them, but we also have the hope of eternal life and, you know, eternity with God. So it’s it’s a both and proposition.

Charlie:
01:09:21

Yes. A good good friend of Bovee, who’s obviously we love him as well, he told us, he said, this is the furthest you’ll ever be from your son. He says, as you move forward in life, he said, You’re always going to be getting closer and closer to see him again.

Tony:
01:09:40

That’s That’s beautiful.

Charlie:
01:09:41

That brought some comfort. That brought some blessing to us. So, yeah, man. What a subject, and what a subject none of us wanted to have to understand or deal with. Yeah, we have so many dear people that would watch this podcast.

Charlie:
01:09:59

Tony, would you just leave them with a few words and maybe even a prayer just to help them along? Because some are really hurting, and some are even get stuck in this grief thing. So, yeah, just go ahead. You can close this out with a prayer, and then I’ll I’ll close after that. So

Tony:
01:10:20

Awesome. Thank you. Charlie and Jill, love you both. Appreciate you both. I just wanna say thank you for listening, and and thank you.

Tony:
01:10:28

I assume you probably listened to Charlie and Jill a lot, which is why you’re catching this. And I’m so glad that they’ve been able to minister to you over months and years, sharing their heart, sharing their journey, and most importantly, sharing the truth of God’s word and the comfort of the Holy Spirit with you. If I could encourage you to do one thing, it would be to read Psalm 139.

Charlie:
01:10:52

Mhmm.

Tony:
01:10:52

You know, just after today’s podcast, whatever, just open up your Bible and read Psalm a 139 and just know that he’s with you. He’ll never leave you. He’ll never forsake you. And and I want you to know that God sees you right where you are. Mhmm.

Tony:
01:11:09

It’s so easy when you’re in grief to feel isolated and to feel like, you know, you you’re stuck in time and the rest of the world is going on quickly all around you, and and you’re just kind of in some kind of suspended animation, whatever that is Yeah. And that you’re just stuck. And and I want you to know God’s with you. And he he he’s not forcing you forward at all, but but he is gonna gently lead you like a good shepherd. And even what you don’t understand, even what you don’t comprehend, just know that he is good.

Tony:
01:11:45

He is loving. He is faithful. And I wanna pray for you, father, in Jesus’ name. Lord, I know there’s people watching from so many walks of life. There are people here, Lord, that have lost someone who is very old, people watching who lost someone who is very young, people who are very close and and essential and important in their lives, and and some people are feeling that void and that vacuum and just wondering if that ache will ever go away.

Tony:
01:12:15

And father, I just pray right now that that you’ll assure these people listening and watching that you you have them, that that they are in your arms, they are in your hands, and that no one can take them out of your hand. And no matter how bad they might feel, Lord, we thank you that deep inside, that Christ is in us, and he’s the hope of glory. And I just pray that there would be a a trickle, a stream, a river of life that will bubble up on the inside of people today, and that they’ll sense hope and they’ll sense promise and they’ll sense comfort. And, Lord, help them not to stay isolated. Help them to find safe people, that they can journey with because there are people who understand and have been where they are.

Tony:
01:13:05

And so, father, we just thank you for the comfort of the Holy Spirit. We thank you for the eternal word of God that when everything else changes, that, Lord, we can always go to your word no matter what’s going on in life. It’s always gonna say, the Lord is my shepherd. Lord, thank you that you’re that to us, that you never change. Thank you for blessing Charlie and Jill and their journey and all the listeners, and we just thank you for helping us all in Jesus’ name.

Tony:
01:13:33

Amen.

Charlie:
01:13:34

Amen. And Tony, we do pray for you and your sweet And, wife and we just, again, are so sorry. But, Lord, we just pray for your spirit, your comfort

Tony:
01:13:45

Thank you, Lord.

Charlie:
01:13:45

To be with Tony and his wife and daughter, Lord, through this really difficult, path, this this situation that they’re in, Lord, of losing their son, Andrew. Lord, I just pray that you Thank you, Lord. Continue, to minister your grace, your love, your comfort, as I know you do every day. And but just just help them, God. Help them just get through these these difficult days, Lord.

Charlie:
01:14:15

Bless Lisa, Lord God, as she’s just processing this with her tender, tender heart, Lord, that she would just feel your love and your comfort in a very, very real, powerful way, Lord. We just know that you’ll do that for all of them, and we thank you for it. In Jesus’ name, amen. Amen. Tony, we sure love you.

Tony:
01:14:42

Hey, thank you. The love is mutual.

Charlie:
01:14:46

And we have the highest respect for you. So you keep pressing on, and love to do this again. I think you just have

Tony:
01:14:54

so

Charlie:
01:14:55

much to say, and you just, I mean, I’ve gotten so blessed. So thank you once again, everybody. His book, Life After Death, you need to get it. I’m sure it’s on Amazon. I’m sure it’s everywhere.

Charlie:
01:15:10

That right? Yeah. Everywhere. And on our website as well. On what what your website again, please, Tony?

Tony:
01:15:16

Our our website is, just www.tony,tony,cooke,cooke, we have an e on the end of cooke,.org. And you can also get the audio version and the ebook version. That you’re gonna need to go to Amazon, Kindle, Audible for, and that type of thing. But we do sell the hard copies on on our website.

Charlie:
01:15:37

Right. And if they wanna join your mailing list, I guess they could do that through your website.

Tony:
01:15:41

Yeah. They just go to our website, scroll to the bottom, and sign up.

Charlie:
01:15:45

Yes. And I encourage you guys to do that. Like I said, Tony is a scholar, just an incredible brilliant mind on all the aspects of Christianity, of the church, of the history of the church, the history of great men and women of God. He’s studied them, and, he’s written some incredible books. So, we encourage you to go and and just take advantage of Tony, Tony’s library of of books and ministries.

Charlie:
01:16:16

So, yeah. Well, what can we say? Right?

Jill:
01:16:20

Thank you. Thank

Tony:
01:16:21

you so Thank you, Jill. Thank you, Charlie. We love you guys.

Charlie:
01:16:24

Alright, buddy.

Jill:
01:16:25

Appreciate you.

Charlie:
01:16:26

Well, God bless you, and we’ll we’ll keep you in prayer, we’ll look forward to talking again.

Jill:
01:16:30

And thank you. We’ll look

Tony:
01:16:32

forward to it.

Jill:
01:16:32

Sorry. Go ahead.

Tony:
01:16:33

We’ll no. Go ahead.

Jill:
01:16:34

No. No. No. You.

Tony:
01:16:36

Well, I I wanna ask if we ever do this again, can Jill not dominate the conversation?

Jill:
01:16:44

Listen. It happens every time.

Charlie:
01:16:45

No. It doesn’t. Quite often, she has a few nuggets that that but you were just so rich today. We wanted to. We just wanted to be quiet and let you just go for it.

Charlie:
01:16:57

So thanks.

Tony:
01:16:57

You’re you’re you’re both depository of great jewels and gems and valuable things. Love you much and thank you for this privilege.

Charlie:
01:17:07

Thank Okay, you, everybody, be sure to like the broadcast and look for more of our podcasts that we drop every week. So God bless you all. Yes. And we just continue to stand with you through your journey in Jesus’ Amen.