Episode 73
When Faith Meets the Reality of Loss

Jill:
00:09

Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. This is the Finding Hope podcast, Getting Through What You Never Asked For. We’re Charlie and Jill LeBlanc, and we are so happy to be with you today. We have a wonderful show here for you and we’re just really happy get to come and share some words of life and hopefully bring comfort to your journey.

Charlie:
00:34

Yes, we have a good friend of ours actually is pastor Sean Yost. He’s actually our pastor here in Jacksonville, Florida. And we’ve been attending his church since we moved here about ten years ago. And there’s many things that we’re going to talk about with Sean. Welcome Sean to the show.

Pastor Sean:
00:52

Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. And and actually we’ve known each other much longer than that. Yes. You guys, your your viewers may not realize, but you guys actually, when you traveled all those years to a ministry, you did worship at our wedding when Barbara and I got married thirty five years ago.

Charlie:
01:08

That’s right. Yes, we did.

Jill:
01:10

So and little kids passed out the program at the door. Right.

Pastor Sean:
01:16

That’s right. Yeah. I’m just grateful to be here with you guys, and it’s been a privilege to watch your journey. And of course, you’ve been very public in your life. And so seeing all the highs and lows and the authenticity and the way that you follow the Lord and the way that you walk through grief and personal loss is just been a privilege to be able to walk with you through some of those seasons.

Pastor Sean:
01:40

So I’m glad to be here with you now.

Jill:
01:42

Well, we’ve been glad to have you along in our journey. Yeah,

Charlie:
01:46

absolutely. And, you know, Sean, so many things we can talk about. And of course, thanks for bringing up the back the past because your wife actually traveled with us in ministry as well before we met you. Yeah. So when Barb was single, we were looking for people to help us travel with our three kids and teach them and teach them homeschool them.

Charlie:
02:09

And Barb came on with us for about a year, I guess. And that was such a blessing. She helped so much and the kids just fell in love with her. And then now to see how this is all evolved here in Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, it’s pretty pretty pretty wild.

Charlie:
02:24

Pretty crazy. But so, you know, our two daughters were attending your church when we moved here. So we came and and, you know, with being wounded from the loss of our son and dealing with that pain and grief still after we moved here, we were refreshed, to be honest with you, Sean, at the way that you included people in your church that were grieving or that had a loss. That’s something that we don’t see very often in the church in general. You know, Jill and I of course have been worship leaders for evangelists.

Charlie:
03:08

So we and when we’re guests at churches, we’re the ones preaching. We don’t get to hear local pastors preach that often, but we’ve been so refreshed by you being inclusive of like Mother’s Day or Christmas or any of these special days that I know some of you have had losses. Talk about that a little bit, Sean, just how you purposely think about that and and what your heart is in that.

Pastor Sean:
03:37

Well, life is messy. And we all experience failure and disappointment and pain and sorrow. And without a proper theology for dealing with grief, people find unhealthy ways to cope with hurt. And so much of our popular Western Christian culture likes to focus on the blessing. And I understand that because that’s sure, you know, God does make these promises and there are blessings.

Pastor Sean:
04:11

But a lot of life is failure and hurt. And when we only focus on the blessing and we only focus on even so much of the way we talk about church, like if the church is really full and there’s a lot of energy that God was really moving, you know, but so it gives this impression then if the church isn’t really full, that God isn’t moving, or if the church isn’t really growing, that God isn’t moving. And so the all the focus is on success and growth and health and wealth. And we’ve seen that that just leaves a lot of people confused in their faith. And at times and we’ve seen this in the culture now, it’s very popular for people to talk about deconstructing their faith, people walking away from the faith or, you know, there’s there are websites called X Vangelical, you know, and it’s very, very popular because what they have what they discovered is they bought into a gospel that promised certain blessings.

Pastor Sean:
05:16

And when that didn’t pan out the way they expected, then they are disillusioned and disappointed. And so I think it’s just better to be honest. Yeah. That life is messy at times. And, know, there’s a famous verse in the Bible and you see it if you Google if you Google it, if you Google this verse, you’re gonna get all these pictures of sunrises and meadows and mountains.

Pastor Sean:
05:38

And the verse is, the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies are new every morning. Very popular. You see it on t shirts and mugs and all that. Sure.

Pastor Sean:
05:47

But that verse is actually embedded in the middle of Lamentations.

Charlie:
05:53

Absolutely.

Pastor Sean:
05:54

And it is in the middle of Jerusalem that is lying in rubble, you know, and it’s in that moment as Jeremiah is walking through the rubble of everything they place their hopes in. Yeah. That he says he chooses to focus on the goodness of God. Yeah. And so I think it’s important and why we are inclusive this way many times, almost any message I’m doing, conscious that there are people sitting in the congregation that are suffering.

Pastor Sean:
06:24

Yeah. And so you want you want to include that and acknowledge that and help people have a proper theology of dealing with grief so they bring it to the Lord. The lament, you know, Lamentations and of course, Jeremiah and you see even a lot of the Psalms are lamenting Psalms. Yeah. And a lament is a prayer and pain that leads to trust and people need that.

Pastor Sean:
06:51

Yeah, you know, yeah.

Charlie:
06:52

Yeah. I recently was reviewing some of my journals. Absolutely beautiful. So many things that you said I could comment on with that limitation. Scripture has been one of the most powerful things that helped me from the beginning because it talks about my grief and he says, I’ll never forget this homelessness and this grief that I’m going through.

Charlie:
07:14

He says, I’ll never forget it. He said, yet I dare. I love that in one of the translations says, I dare to hope when I remember.

Pastor Sean:
07:22

Oh, that’s good.

Charlie:
07:23

That his loving kindness never ceases his mercies on you every morning. And I preach that a lot because it’s like, well, everything I had hoped for was lost is what he said in limited in one of the translations. Yeah, but but yeah, you know,

Pastor Sean:
07:36

and that’s how people feel and when when they don’t especially in church world or in Christian world, when they don’t really understand that or have a theology for that, then people kind of fall into two camps when they when they deal with suffering. One is anger and one is denial. And so they’ll they’ll just act like everything is fine and I’m good. And, you know, I’m done crying and everything’s Okay.

Charlie:
08:03

Right. Right.

Pastor Sean:
08:04

Or they’ll just get angry. Yeah. And neither of those are are healthy. Right. It’s better to express your grief to the Lord.

Pastor Sean:
08:12

And and that and like you said, and then dare to hope.

Charlie:
08:16

Dare, dare to hope. Yeah. And interestingly, we’ve been Tanja follows our YouTube channel and our Facebook channel when we post things and and, you know, she she quickly answers people when she can, but there’s some that she wants us to answer that are, you know, pretty heavy. And I was actually answering a few of them just yesterday. I think it was.

Charlie:
08:37

And boy, I mean, just like what you said, I grew up in the word of faith. No evil shall befall me. Nothing could come near my dwelling. My son died, got in an accident or whatever. And and and I have to face this every day.

Charlie:
08:53

How am I even supposed to believe that he heals broken hearts when I believed him for this and this and this and it didn’t happen? So, man, I’m just like, woah, you know? Yeah, I mean, that’s exactly what we felt too. Yeah. When when Beau died, everything we had hoped for, everything we had believed, the foundation of all of our faith being Rhema graduates and being amongst, you know, the word of faith movement, you know, and I’m not downing that.

Charlie:
09:23

I’m just saying we were not prepared for this at all. And and interestingly, a couple of our friends, you know, were really concerned for us because they saw what we were going through in that realm. Yeah, but but you know, thank God for his mercy and Grace and I think once I began to read the scriptures again after all that and see Paul’s troubles and all the great men of women of God that went through all kinds of difficult things. That’s when it started affirming me that, hey, wait a minute, we thought that everything would be fine if we were Christians, No, never any problem. But that doesn’t match up with the word of God at all.

Pastor Sean:
10:06

At all. Yeah. At all. And, you know, like you said, those different emphasis you mentioned, Reema and Word of Faith and some of those things. There’s some great things that came from that or and that are that are embedded there.

Pastor Sean:
10:20

Yeah. But the problem is if it’s not balanced, if you only have that, but you don’t have you don’t have the balance of recognizing there’s also going to be pain, then it can be very disoriented when you do experience pain. Yeah. That’s why, you know, Ecclesiastes says a man of wisdom holds on to one extreme and doesn’t let go of the other. Yes.

Pastor Sean:
10:40

And that that tension creates balance. Yes. And I think that’s that’s important. And you hit a really good point. You know, throughout the Bible, there are people that deal with suffering.

Pastor Sean:
10:50

Oh, yeah. And see it all throughout scripture. But even then, at times, it disorients their faith. Yeah. Sure.

Pastor Sean:
10:59

You know, one of one of the one of my favorite examples is John the Baptist. John the Baptist, who is the the forerunner to the Messiah in his mother’s womb. John the Baptist leaps recognizing the presence of the Messiah when Mary walks in pregnant. John the Baptist at the Jordan River says, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. John knew who Jesus was.

Charlie:
11:23

Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
11:23

But then after John is arrested and he’s put in prison and he sends two messengers to go ask Jesus, are you the one or should we expect someone else? Yeah. Like, why is John confused now? And most commentators would say it’s because of his present circumstance. This is not how I saw this playing out as the forerunner to the Messiah.

Pastor Sean:
11:48

You’re out there doing your thing. I’m here in prison and you haven’t even come to visit me, you know. And Jesus says, go tell John, the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame are healed, the poor hear the gospel, and blessed are you if you don’t fall away on account of this. That is very confusing. Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
12:09

Why is that gonna make somebody fall away? Because he’s saying all those things are indicators and proof and evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. He’s saying, yes, John, it’s me. And yes, you’re in prison and blessed are you if you don’t fall away on account of this because your present circumstance is causing you to deal with some doubt. Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
12:34

And so you see it all throughout scripture, you know, and and I think that’s that’s important for people to to know and to have that expectation.

Charlie:
12:44

Yeah. Yeah. I love I love that. As well as Paul in in second Corinthians, where he talks about the God of all comfort and comfort others with the same comfort. Right after that, he goes, I think it’s I think brethren that you ought to know my circumstances.

Charlie:
12:59

You need to know what I’m going through. And I think that’s really healthy is for us to be very transparent and honest about the pain and the difficulty that we go through. And you you have been that way in the pulpit, which we appreciate. And, you know, the scripture that rings out a lot to in my heart when I when we hear you minister quite often is in particular on the holidays and you recognize those who are hurting is the simple scripture in Romans weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. And I think that’s so healthy.

Charlie:
13:37

It’s like we know how to rejoice. Show me a miracle. Show me a healing. Show me prosperity. Oh, God paid my mortgage off.

Charlie:
13:46

And we rejoice and we should by all means. But when someone is hurting, we also need to recognize their pain. And as I said in the in our book, don’t try to fix them. And I think that’s what you’ve done so well. Being a pastor, Sean, I’m sure that you I mean, you’ve most pastors have to deal with death in their congregation all the time.

Charlie:
14:11

So, you know, I was just wanting to know like, you know, how do you guys do that as a team? You’ve got other pastors on staff and you’ve watched dear people lose children, lose loved ones.

Pastor Sean:
14:26

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, you know, Jill, you said it in the book and in your book also about being insistent on just coming to be there, you know? And I don’t know if you remember that that part of the book where you were saying you’re just giving some advice to people and like when someone is hurting, just insist on going and being there. They may not even know they need help, but just go. And you know in Jewish culture they call that sitting Shiva, that you just go sit with the person, just go be with them and so we try to condition all of our pastoral team that when someone is hurting, when someone is suffering, don’t shy away because you don’t know what to say.

Pastor Sean:
15:07

Right. Just go be there. Hold their hand. They’re gonna remember your presence more than your your words, know, just go be there. So good.

Pastor Sean:
15:14

And and be a comfort and be an encouragement and don’t try to fix it, don’t try to give advice, just be with them and comfort them. Yeah. This the Holy Spirit does for us. He comforts us in our in our time of need. Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
15:29

In fact, you know, Charlie and Jill yesterday, I sat with the family right here in this office that one of our elders in our church and he and and his family were together on Sunday afternoon and watching the World Cup and after at the end their 38 year old son was leaving their house to go home, got in his car a mile down the road, got in a head on collision with another car and both drivers died instantly.

Jill:
15:57

Oh, we heard about that accident. I didn’t know that was someone that was Yep.

Pastor Sean:
16:02

Yeah. He’s gone. The son was also a member here and and so, you know, they were here yesterday and we just we just sat with them. We were over there the next day with family and, you know, doing whatever we can, but just to be with them and cry with them and, you know, and they made a great statement, which I offered your book, but they already have your book And but they made a great statement. They said, our spirits are at peace, but our hearts are broken.

Jill:
16:35

Oh, absolutely.

Pastor Sean:
16:36

You know, and I thought that was such a good statement that like they know they know to be absent from the bodies to be present with the Lord. But but on this side, you know, the family their hearts are just devastated. And the story is, you know, when when he left the house, the the younger son was on their way on his way to their house. And he called them and he said, Hey, it looks like I’m going to be late. There’s really bad traffic up here.

Pastor Sean:
17:02

It looks like there might have been an accident. And then as he gets closer, he calls them again and tells them, yeah, I mean, their traffic is having to turn around. It’s really apparently there was fatalities and I can’t get through. They started trying to call their other son on the phone and wasn’t getting an answer. So they got on their bicycles and they rode up there and it was him.

Jill:
17:23

Oh my gosh.

Pastor Sean:
17:24

And they were able to go and

Jill:
17:27

Oh my gosh.

Pastor Sean:
17:31

They just wanted to hug him.

Jill:
17:33

Yeah.

Charlie:
17:36

Oh, I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine.

Pastor Sean:
17:38

And so these kind of things are happening in people’s lives all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is the place where the church can love those people. Where God can love those people through the church.

Pastor Sean:
17:53

Yes. Where where his his comfort and his presence is expressed through the lives of people that just sit with you.

Jill:
18:09

Yeah. There’s not a whole lot you can say at that time but your physical presence speaks volumes. Oh man.

Pastor Sean:
18:18

Yeah, it’s exactly right.

Charlie:
18:20

They’ll tell me about this accident and tell me about the death of

Jill:
18:25

what I heard

Charlie:
18:26

what we heard and oh my gosh I’m just I’m shocked.

Pastor Sean:
18:32

Yeah, we’re still we’re still rallying around that family, you know, right now. So, yeah, this this your your podcast, your book, this message is so relevant to so many people in the world.

Charlie:
18:46

Well,

Pastor Sean:
18:47

Tragedy that’s can happen at at any any moment.

Jill:
18:51

Yeah. I know.

Charlie:
18:52

Yeah. The the the the trail of of of heartaches and pain And is never never ending really. You know, as a Christian and as a lover of Jesus and a lover of God and lover lover of his word, You know, there’s so many things that we we don’t understand. And even in having to answer these these comments on YouTube and so forth, it’s very difficult. You know, one of the one of the scriptures I lean to quite often is is in Corinthians 13, you know, where basically says we see through a glass darkly, but then we’ll see face to face.

Charlie:
19:39

And, you know, there’s just not a lot of answers for some of these situations and I’m not one of those guys that believe, you know, and I know everybody’s got their own right to believe whatever they want to believe, but I’m not one of those guys that believe that, you know, God has an appointed day and and God took your son and and you know, he said this your time’s up and I’m taking him right now. Yeah, I don’t see my loving father that way, you know, and I don’t want to get into a debate, you know, and I’m sure we wouldn’t but but my point is is that, you know, we’ve got to bring you’ve said it before to me the mystery, you know, like we don’t understand everything and and and we we won’t.

Pastor Sean:
20:22

And that that’s where that’s where the verse in Lamentations is actually so helpful because and and you kind of picked up on this a few minutes ago. In the midst of that, that that’s, you know, you talked about hope and daring to hope, but what Jeremiah does is he focuses on the goodness of God and the faithfulness of God in the midst of that pain. And when we do that, when we when we when we rehearse God’s faithfulness, it anchors our soul and hope and that can emerge from the pain. And that’s what happens in that story in Lamentations, you know, and out of the out of the rubble, things do rise. And but rehearsing and remembering God’s faithfulness Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
21:09

Is the key. Remembering and rehearsing God’s faithfulness even in the midst of pain. Yeah. But it’s also important to remember that that God can handle your frustration and your disappointment and even your anger. When when you look at the lamenting Psalms, when you when you read through these Psalms of lament, oftentimes it starts off like, where were you, God?

Pastor Sean:
21:31

And now my soul is to die. Don’t even wanna be here anymore. And just, you know, why did you Right. And then but it always comes back to, nevertheless, you are God. Mhmm.

Pastor Sean:
21:42

And I will I will put my trust in

Charlie:
21:44

you. Right.

Pastor Sean:
21:45

And and but when you don’t express it, when there’s not that freedom to be honest about it, it festers in other ways and it and it becomes very unhealthy. Yeah. And so God can handle your lamentation.

Charlie:
21:59

Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
21:59

He can handle your lament, your pain. Yeah. And as you do that and then you begin to remember God’s faithfulness, then hope can can begin to emerge again.

Jill:
22:09

Yeah. That’s right. That was certainly my story. I was so angry in the very beginning when our son died and I was just not going to be not going to stop until I got some answers as to what the heck happened. And and and I was very honest with the Lord.

Jill:
22:29

You know, I didn’t even speak to him for weeks just because why? Why bother? But but after a while, he he just he very patiently stayed with me during all that time and eventually began to surface in small ways just that I could I just began to see that he was still there with me. And and eventually he won my heart back and brought me to a healthier place to where I would I was honest with him but I didn’t have conversation with him in the beginning. But I was certainly honest with him the way I was feeling.

Jill:
23:20

And so I believe that kept it to kept my heart at least to a place where he could reach out to me and eventually I could sense that he was there. So, but even for those who shut him down, he is still there with them. Yeah. And is at the ready to be able to step in and just let them know he’s there and then eventually begin to reach out and and so that they can receive his comfort and his love. He’s so amazing.

Jill:
23:55

He’s so faithful.

Pastor Sean:
23:56

You know, a picture that I sometimes think of when it comes to what you’re expressing right now, Jill, is some scene I saw in a movie a long time ago. I don’t remember what movie it was. But the the scene is they’re they’re in a hospital. It’s a husband and a wife. And they’re just getting bad news about somebody one of their children I believe that had died.

Pastor Sean:
24:20

And she turns to him and she begins blaming him. And she’s yelling at him and she’s hitting him in the chest like this. And he just he just stands there and she’s hitting and then eventually he just puts his arms around and pulls her in and all that anger dissolves into just there’s just a release. Yeah. Wow.

Pastor Sean:
24:42

And I feel like that’s a picture of how God is with us sometimes is Yes. He takes it because he can.

Jill:
24:49

Yes.

Pastor Sean:
24:49

And he stands there and lets us do that and then just puts his arms around us until all that’s expressed. And then there can be release and then there can be comfort and then there can be, you know, the next part of the process that starts.

Charlie:
25:06

Yeah, right. Right. Well, I’ll tell you, you know, just knowing you as a pastor and knowing all the situations like yesterday that you’ve experienced, we know your heart has just been broken so many times, including your associate pastor that we love so much, David Sheffield. I mean, just in the ten years that we knew David, we got so close to him. I mean, I felt like he made me feel like I was his best friend, you know, that kind of thing.

Charlie:
25:38

And that’s the way he did with everyone. And you worked with him closely For many, many years.

Pastor Sean:
25:46

Yeah. That was a big loss for us. And David David was a father and he was he was one of those quiet anchors that no matter what kind of flailings you might be experiencing within yourself, he would just kind of smile and be like, it’s all right. Come on. Let’s go.

Pastor Sean:
26:05

You know? And he was just great that way. And and that was a that was a big loss. Again, it was one of those bittersweet things. We rejoice because we know that, man, he is to be absent from the bodies to be present with the Lord.

Pastor Sean:
26:17

We’re fully aware of that, you know, for him. But on on this side, it was it was a real loss for us. We miss him.

Charlie:
26:23

Yeah. And of course, he he battled that that heart issue for a long time and basically knew that he was in a lot of

Pastor Sean:
26:31

17 stents. He was 21. Mean, used to make a joke that we’re going to make a video with him like like Iron Man, you know, like, you know, I was like, have that thing glowing and he’s got all that titanium in there, you know?

Charlie:
26:46

Oh, man.

Pastor Sean:
26:48

So many things he he battled through and never never complained. Amazing. But you know, there’s a lot of you know, I mentioned the family I was with yesterday who who lost their son. Wow. And we think about loss like that but additionally, I was with another family yesterday.

Pastor Sean:
27:05

It’s just been one of those one of those weeks who their son deals with some mental disorder. And because of that, he committed a violent crime and is in prison for life now. And we’ve walked with that family and they’re a great family, you know, and nothing it’s not something they ever saw coming. They knew they knew some of his depression and some of the things that he had dealt with, but never imagining that he would hurt another person. The concern more was maybe he would hurt himself.

Pastor Sean:
27:46

And and that the loss of that is a son who is now in prison for life, who is a sweet person. Like, you were to talk to this kid, he’s only 18.

Charlie:
27:59

Oh.

Pastor Sean:
27:59

If you were to talk to this kid and it would be he was just a a sweet person. But because of the things that he was dealing with and not in his right mind, he committed a violent crime. And Yeah. And now on the other side of that, they’re having to relive that on and on and on because the the victims of the crime Oh. Have gone after them in a lot of personal lawsuits including civil suits and all kinds of things and Wow.

Pastor Sean:
28:28

It’s just raking their entire family through it over and over and over again. And they also I gave your book too, and it’s a different kind of grief, but it’s still grief. It’s still a loss of something that, you know, and that you’re having to continue to live out.

Charlie:
28:45

Right.

Pastor Sean:
28:45

And I think it’s just a recognition that this is what a lot of people, not these extreme things, but a lot of people are dealing with a lot of loss, a lot of disappointment, things not working out like they planned. The the, know, the brochure they bought didn’t include all of this, you know. Right. And so now they’re disappointed. And I I think for us as a church, as believers, as part of the body of Christ is to to not make that so it it feels like there’s something wrong.

Pastor Sean:
29:22

There is something wrong, but it makes it seem like there’s something wrong spiritually or something wrong with the faith or something wrong with God. And that’s, like you pointed out earlier, all throughout scripture, are people that deal with loss and pain and failure, and that’s a lot of it. And so I think for us is conditioning our staff and conditioning our church to be with people in the midst of those moments and just walk with them through that season. Yeah. I think what happens is then that helps people in their own formation when disappointment comes up that it not rock their faith as much.

Pastor Sean:
29:58

What what the mother said to me yesterday is is we were meeting with them again just with the new revelations of some of the things that they’re facing. She said one of the things that that we say here at the church frequently, you know, our church is creedal. We do the Nicene Creed. We talk about the Apostles Creed. And one of the things that Nicene Creed says, it it it that’s different than the Apostles Creed.

Pastor Sean:
30:20

The Apostles Creed is more of a a baptismal creed. It’s I believe, you know, these are these are belief statements, what I believe.

Charlie:
30:27

Mhmm.

Pastor Sean:
30:27

The Nicene Creed is interesting because it begins by saying we believe. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and it goes through all these different statements. And what we tell people is when you can’t believe because of your current circumstance, when you can’t believe because you’re walking through doubt and disappointment, come anyway because we can. We believe. That’s good.

Pastor Sean:
30:55

And when you when you can’t pray.

Charlie:
30:58

Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
30:58

Because you’re disappointed and you’re hurt and you deal with doubt, come anyway.

Charlie:
31:03

Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
31:03

Because we can pray.

Charlie:
31:04

Wow.

Pastor Sean:
31:05

When you can’t worship. And so what she said to me yesterday is she said that those words have meant so much to their family as it’s been so hard to believe at times because of this just situation they’re walking through, that there are times that they come anyway, even though they don’t want to, because they can lean into the community of faith. And and that’s that’s the part of conditioning the church is to say when those things happen, so they haven’t fallen away from the faith because of it. Even though it’s hard, they’ve leaned into it because of being formed with an understanding that disappointment does happen. And in those moments, God is still faithful.

Pastor Sean:
31:53

God is still good. And we put our trust in him.

Charlie:
31:57

Yeah. It reminds me of the scripture that says when when one suffer, we all suffer. And and, you know, it’s it’s true. That’s that’s the heart we need to have is when someone is suffering in our congregation or among our friends that we suffer with them because we’re part of the same body. We’re part of each other.

Charlie:
32:19

Yeah. And and you had a great message just last Sunday about the communion and about the togetherness that we are all together. And but but yeah, just just our the description Isaiah actually that that said that when Israel suffered, he suffered God suffered. And I think that’s another point that we try to bring out in our book a lot. Just in general on this podcast is that, you know, Jesus wept and his humanity.

Charlie:
32:49

He feels the pain. That we go through and in Isaiah, he suffered when we suffer and seen also that that God was sorrowful that he had made man because they had gotten so corrupt and it broke his heart. He grieved before he brought the flood and seen in the garden when they when they sinned. Where are you? You know, I’m looking for you.

Charlie:
33:16

I would walk in fellowship with you every day. What happened? Why are you hiding? You know, I guess just seeing the father’s love and compassion for hurting people, for orphans, for widows, for for the poor, all these aspects. It’s just, it’s been a real healthy dose for me, I know, in my journey, just to know that he cares.

Charlie:
33:41

And here’s the thing, we get a good revelation of his love and his comfort and his caring and his compassion, the questions are still there in the natural mind. Well, what happened? Why didn’t you rescue? Why weren’t you there to save? What happened to the angel that guards us?

Charlie:
33:59

What happened to the, you know, they’re all still out there floating around, but they’re more coming from the enemy, I think. And you did a good teaching on spiritual warfare some about a month or so ago, too. But, you know, these battlings of the enemy is going to just try to totally destroy you. I was reading Matthew and I don’t want to I want you to talk about, but I really met you again about the confrontation of Jesus, you know, in the desert, you know, and he said, you know, if you’re the son of God, you know, I mean, we have to realize in our grief journeys and we talk about this quite a bit that there is spiritual warfare there. I mean, the enemy is trying to totally take our faith, you know, Jesus turned to Peter said, Satan a desire to sift you as wheat, but I pray that your faith fail not Jesus saw what was going to happen to Peter, but you know, he he said, I’m praying for you in advance, that Satan doesn’t get ahold of you and take you out.

Charlie:
34:56

And that’s what I see in families like yours yesterday, the other family that’s dealing with their son in prison. I mean, and we know from our own experience, Satan was trying to take us out and gave us all those thoughts and questions to deal with, you know.

Pastor Sean:
35:13

You know, he’s near the brokenhearted. Yes. Know, and I think that’s an important thing to remember that to bring a little lighthearted example to what you said, Charlie, about when one part suffers and all parts suffer, you know, as as one body. It’s it’s really true. But if you think of it in in this way, and so this may be a more of a lighthearted example.

Pastor Sean:
35:36

Barb, my wife, she she she just gives great back rubs. And and whenever she massages my shoulders Sorry. It’s not just my shoulders that rejoice. Everything relaxes. Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
35:51

I smile. Everything rejoices. And in the same way, if you ever hit your thumb with a hammer, it’s not just your thumb, you know, ouch out. Your whole body reacts when you’re going around the room and you know, everything is when one part suffers, small like that, everything suffers, you know?

Charlie:
36:10

Right.

Pastor Sean:
36:10

And and and Paul says, so it is with Christ. You are the body of Christ. Yeah. You know, and so we’re we’re all connected together.

Charlie:
36:18

We are.

Pastor Sean:
36:19

And so that’s why when you when you see a family dealing with disappointment and loss or a teenager struggling with doubt and unbelief, whatever it might be, it’s to remember we’re connected and to to be together in that process. Yeah.

Charlie:
36:34

I’ll tell you, compassion. Yeah. It is so important in our in our in the body of Christ, because too often when when when something happens, people are always, did you hear that? Did you hear that? Did you hear that?

Charlie:
36:48

And and, you know, and oh, man, you know, they they did this and, you know, they shouldn’t have done that. If they would have done that, then this wouldn’t have happened and all this kind of stuff. And I don’t know. I mean, I know there’s a place for for truth and accuracy when there’s major things that happen amongst major ministries and situations. We have to be clear and accurate about situations.

Charlie:
37:11

But and Paul was he went in and he straightened out some things in the church and, you know, had to send someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh because he was messed up, you know, but but I don’t know. I just think this whole thing of compassion is seems to have been lacking, at least in my journey in my early years. And I think I’m guilty of it as well, because I just thought the word would fix it all, you know? Well bless God, you know, he’s in heaven and and and you know, and the word says we have eternal life and the Lord says don’t don’t the word says, you know, he gives us joy for morning. Rejoice rejoice, you know, this kind of, you know, like Satan did take the the word and push it in the wrong place at the wrong time, you know?

Charlie:
37:58

And I think we’re guilty of that. And I know we were as well before we lost foe and understand the depths of pain that people go through. That’s something that we never understood before. We didn’t understand how much pain people go through. Mean, you know, we traveled with Joyce Meyer and and for years I would see her walk up before she preached and hold her bible and just say, could never make it without Jesus and his word.

Charlie:
38:28

I would never have been able to survive. And I’m just like, well, I love God and Jesus is good to me. And and, yeah, I preach the same message. And and but I don’t understand that what she’s talking about because she had been through that, you know, her molestation for years and years of her father and the pain and the brokenness of that and and and the wounded soul that she had that Jesus had healed her broken heart and brought her to a new place. And so I think that I don’t know what I’m trying to say here is just that the church in general, we need to understand that they’re hurting people even if we’re not hurting even if we’ve never experienced tragedy.

Charlie:
39:12

I think in general people need to understand that that it happens every day. And if you read the news, you’ll see it. And we need to just, like you said,

Pastor Sean:
39:22

Do the body of you guys remember? I know we’re not on a podcast to promote a movie, but did you ever remember a movie called Napoleon Dynamite?

Charlie:
39:32

I vaguely remember that. I know that I’ve heard the name a thousand times, but I don’t know that we ever.

Pastor Sean:
39:37

Well, was a trendy pop movie.

Jill:
39:39

I’ve only seen parts of it.

Charlie:
39:40

Yeah, just parts of it.

Pastor Sean:
39:41

It’s one of these dumb comedies. Yeah. But there’s there’s a scene in the movie where he’s running for like the student council president of the school and the guy that’s like his campaign manager or whatever tells everybody his name is Pedro. And he tells everybody, Vote for Pedro and all your wildest dreams will come true. Like, that’s that’s the thing.

Jill:
40:05

Like, this dude council.

Pastor Sean:
40:07

Yeah. Vote for president. Vote for Pedro. All your wildest dreams will come true. And I think that this is what a lot of people think when they come to faith is it’s almost like voting for Pedro.

Pastor Sean:
40:16

Like you come to you come to follow Jesus and all your wildest dreams will come true. Follow Jesus and everything’s gonna work out. And then people learn certain parts about faith and really what’s going on there is we actually haven’t placed our trust in Christ, we’re trying to control Christ. We’re trying to find the right formula, the right root, the right process, the right put the faith here and do the thing here and then it’s gonna give me this outcome. So we’re it’s not that we’ve actually just put our complete trust in Him, we’re actually wanting to control the situation a lot of times.

Pastor Sean:
40:57

We may not say it that way, we’re too sophisticated maybe to admit that, but deep down that’s a lot of times what’s going on and that’s why when it doesn’t work out people get disappointed because I tried the formula, the formula didn’t work. Know? And that’s why it’s important to help people understand that we do trust God, we do have faith, we do stand on His Word, we do believe these promises, we do make confessions that are important to confess, but we also acknowledge that life happens and life is messy. Things beyond our control happen and in those moments when we’re disappointed, what will we do? Just like John the Baptist who is in prison, he is in a difficult situation.

Pastor Sean:
41:42

This is not how he imagined being the forerunner to the prophesied one, the one that was prophesied that he would come and say, prepare the way of the Lord, like that’s him. And now he’s in prison? Like this is not the way the script should read, you know, Jesus tells him, don’t fall away on account of you not understanding this right now.

Charlie:
42:06

That’s really good. I never saw that side of that scripture, you know.

Pastor Sean:
42:10

Yeah. And there’s a lot of examples like that, you know, and I think that’s why it’s just important to have the full, to have to have a balance of that teaching so that you’re not completely destitute in your faith when some circumstance emerges that you didn’t.

Charlie:
42:28

Yeah, you know, and I really shouldn’t go here because I’m a songwriter and I’m a musician.

Pastor Sean:
42:34

You know, everybody’s going to go there.

Charlie:
42:37

I know, I know that’s what you do when you teach. You said, no, I’m not going to say that. And everybody goes, come on, you’re going to say it. But, okay. And I’ve never said this before.

Charlie:
42:48

I’ve thought it too many times, but there’s a lot of Christian songs that I hear today that that I agree with them. And it all depends on the angle that you look at it in. But there’s one very popular that I love. And we actually I didn’t sing it, but one of our singers in our band wanted to do it at our last conference. And I said, fine.

Charlie:
43:10

And it has a bridge, which is beautiful. I sought the Lord and he heard and he answered. That’s why I trust him. That’s why I trust him. And for some reason, because of what I’ve been through, I’ve had to trust God when he didn’t answer.

Charlie:
43:31

Yeah. You know what I’m saying? And it’s kind of like, you know, forgive me for yelling, red lines, everything, but, but, you know, it’s like, and again, that’s fine because because we do trust him because he has heard and he and he had he has answered my prayer of grief and my my prayer of pain. And I’ve trusted him and he’s brought me through this hell and brought me to the other side into a healthy, healthy place. And people are saying, Charlie, you don’t look healthy.

Charlie:
43:58

You don’t sound healthy. But but yeah, it’s just thing is it’s kind of that theology that we we he’s faithful only because everything has gone right. Well, is he still faithful when everything doesn’t go right? What is what is the definition of faithful, you know, and I’ve had to wrestle with those things because we’re singing songs about his faithfulness all the time. Say, yeah, but he was faithful except for then.

Charlie:
44:19

But no, he was faithful. He’s always been faithful and he he never promised that we wouldn’t have difficulty in this world. You shall have tribulation. Right. He warned the apostles over and all again over not possible, but his his clan.

Charlie:
44:35

Is that he worked with? Yeah, his followers. He warned them all the time. You’re gonna be persecuted. Some of you be thrown in prison.

Charlie:
44:41

Some of you gonna be killed. You’re gonna be murdered. You know, he gave them clear warning. But once you’re excited about Jesus, you don’t think about those things, you know, and and when they happen, you’re actually making

Pastor Sean:
44:51

You’re picking up on something that’s really important, Charlie, is, unfortunately, a lot of people in today’s culture get their theology from their music. More more than from teaching. And that’s why good songs and that are grounded are so important. And and you’re right. When you say that’s why I trust him, the implication is if he didn’t do that, then I wouldn’t trust him.

Charlie:
45:18

Right.

Pastor Sean:
45:19

That’s why I trust him.

Charlie:
45:20

I’m sure it’s not what he meant when he wrote it. Oh, I’m sure.

Pastor Sean:
45:23

There’s another song that’s similar and and one of the ways that we kind of deal with that is we try to have our worship team verbally give some balance to something if there’s something else. There’s this one song that everybody loves and part of the song says, you’re never gonna let, you’re never gonna let me down. Mhmm. You’re never gonna let. Right.

Pastor Sean:
45:41

You’re never gonna let me. But there’s a lot of people sitting there in that moment that feel very let down.

Charlie:
45:46

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Pastor Sean:
45:47

And so we have to say and remind people that even if you’re in a middle of a moment where you feel like he’s let you down, his promise is that he will be with you and he will he will walk with you through that thing.

Charlie:
46:00

Absolutely.

Pastor Sean:
46:00

So I I think for us it’s it’s finding a way to bring some some teaching to the moment if we’re doing a song like that because so many people do get their theology from songs.

Jill:
46:13

Yeah, it’s so true. It’s so true. And when we teach on songwriting to, you know, when we have the opportunity, we certainly bring that out because people do form their theology around the songs that they sing. Because when you’re singing a song, it’s just it just gets in here. And it’s so crucial to make sure our songs align with the word of God and not we’re not writing from our experiences, but we’re writing from the word of God, which never fails and which will endure forever.

Jill:
46:48

Right. Amen. So crucial.

Charlie:
46:50

Yeah. Music just has a way of getting into you. We sing the ABCs and the kids learn ABCs that way. And I remember I was in the world, you know, singing I’m a joker, I’m a smoker, I’m a midnight toker, I’m a sinner, I’m a grinner, I’m a lover, blah, blah, blah. I was singing that and I just gotten saved shortly before that.

Charlie:
47:12

And all of a sudden I’m in this bar singing this and I’m going, I can’t sing this anymore. I am not going to say this because it doesn’t work with the new creation that had happened to me. I’m not a joke.

Pastor Sean:
47:25

I’m not a was smoker. A joker. I was a smoker.

Charlie:
47:29

Well, there you go. And, you know, we have to make

Jill:
47:32

it a gospel song,

Charlie:
47:33

you know, to be honest, you know, I you know, the song I wrote God is my refuge. And, you know, I just basically went to Psalm 23 in Psalm 46, but I went to Psalm 23 and and there was a line in there where it says, goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life. And every time I sang that in my mind, it’s like as a Christian, only good is going to happen to me. Only God’s mercy is going to be with me always. I never looked at it.

Charlie:
48:06

You know, after after we had this loss, I thought I ain’t singing that anymore because it’s not true. But I saw and I think it was the New Living that says only your goodness. Surely your goodness and mercy will. And I thought, oh yeah, of course, your goodness will follow me no matter what I go through. Your mercy will follow me no matter what I go through.

Charlie:
48:33

And I think that’s just such a healthy thing. I sing it that way now when I go, shoot, surely your goodness, whatever. I don’t know how I

Pastor Sean:
48:42

say it.

Jill:
48:43

Your goodness and mercy

Charlie:
48:44

will follow me. Yes. I put in the in there because it’s so important.

Pastor Sean:
48:51

Yeah, that is a good distinction. Yeah, that’s that’s very, very important. There’s a lot of things like that, that if you leave that that part out, changes the expectation for people. Yeah. And you guys have a lot of great albums, but prayers and praises is one of my favorites.

Pastor Sean:
49:05

Thank you. Love that one.

Charlie:
49:07

I know you have told us that one song has meant a lot to you for years that be glorified and

Pastor Sean:
49:13

sing it all the time.

Charlie:
49:14

Oh, my goodness. That touches us so much. And you sent me a picture of the what is it? The Hosanna the other day.

Pastor Sean:
49:23

I I don’t know. I was I I was just I was doing on one of those worship, you know, just kinda feel a little retro with some of the worship songs. And that one just it that always the anointing on that just always brings me right in. When I when I was in Africa, I was in Africa for a year and this is a long time ago before iTunes and, you know, CDs. So, I had cassettes.

Charlie:
49:45

Yes. You know. Yeah.

Pastor Sean:
49:46

What are those? Only had two with me while I was in Africa, and that was one of them. Prayers and praise was one

Jill:
49:52

of them. Wow.

Pastor Sean:
49:53

And and so I listened to it all the time when I was in Africa, and it gave me so and it had so many private worship moments with it, so many times of just actually when I felt lonely or or away from all the things I was used to and comfortable with, it’d bring me a lot of comfort. I I still I still go back to that one a lot.

Charlie:
50:11

That’s beautiful. Well, thanks, Sean.

Pastor Sean:
50:13

You for your years of ministry and the ways that you guys have through different seasons of life serve the Lord. Thank Thank you. Music, with writing, with podcasts, all the things just faithful to do whatever God has put in front of you. And I’m very grateful for you.

Charlie:
50:28

Thanks so much, Sean. Well, we sure love you and Barb. You guys are just amazing people and great friends. And we hope to spend more time together. We keep saying, let’s do dinner and we never do.

Charlie:
50:39

So we need to do it now for sure. So it’s recorded. It’s recorded. Doing it.

Pastor Sean:
50:45

All right. Let’s do it.

Charlie:
50:47

All right. Well, know that you have another appointment, so we don’t want to keep you. But again, thank you so much for joining us. It’s very rich to talk to you about these things and to find balance in our life and in our journey with Christ and in our theology and just to we need to be healthy. We’ve got to we got to run our race with health and and be able to manage all of these areas of our life and it’s not easy.

Charlie:
51:16

But thank you for being a good pastor and helping the people like you do me.

Pastor Sean:
51:21

You’re welcome. Thanks for having me on. And I think I would just leave leave this thought with you. This is my life versus Proverbs three, five and six Barb had it engraved on the inside of my wedding ring when we got married because for so so long, this has just been a verse that god continues to bring me back to and as trust in the lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he’ll direct your paths.

Pastor Sean:
51:48

Yeah. And it’s so relevant for whatever season. It really is. Not to not to focus on what I understand, how I can figure it out, but place my trust in him and in all my ways, whatever those ways are, acknowledge him. And and so that’s that’s I think where I would wanna leave it with people is to say whatever season you’re in, a victory or a season of difficulty, just continue to place your trust in him and don’t lean on your understanding.

Jill:
52:13

That’s so good.

Pastor Sean:
52:14

And take refuge in

Charlie:
52:16

him. Beautiful. Why don’t you close out with a prayer for the people who are listening?

Pastor Sean:
52:20

Heavenly Father, we’re so grateful for the opportunity to be together this way and and to share this moment Thank you, father. Around the world that’ll be tuning in and listening to these words, and I pray that they would bring comfort to them. God, that that the things we’ve talked about, the words that we’ve shared, the stories that we’ve shared would would be a comfort to people and would bring hope to people. We pray, father, you know what situation every single person is walking through right now. And, god, I pray that you would reveal yourself to them in ways that they would be able to recognize and understand and and see that you are with them in every season.

Pastor Sean:
52:52

You are with them. God, I thank you for blessing them in Jesus name. Amen.

Charlie:
52:56

Amen. And we’ll continue to pray for the family in our church. Oh gosh, our hearts just break. I had no idea that it was.

Pastor Sean:
53:06

Thank you guys.

Charlie:
53:09

You. Have a great day and thanks for being on this program.

Jill:
53:12

Yes, thank you, Sean. This was such a great show today with Pastor Sean and we hope you received some things that are going to help you in your walk with the Lord and just surviving this season that you are in. I wanted to say something about we ran out of time. Pastor Sean had to run to another appointment, but I was that person who hit bottom in my faith when we were walking through this and after the death of our son. I mean, I crashed and burned.

Jill:
53:50

And but the beautiful thing that came out of that is, is I felt like I had to get to know the Lord all over again. And I got to know a side of the Lord that I really didn’t before. And I believe I’ve come through this much more compassionate, much more loving and patient. And it has birthed some things inside of me. And it has caused me to, to, to study the word of God with not not like I know it all already, but as a teachable disciple of Jesus.

Jill:
54:33

And, you know, it’s like when there’s a forest fire, it totally mars the land for a long time. But even in all of that black charred desolation, you’ll eventually see a little tree, the new green leaves just start pushing through the ground. And, and all of the new growth that eventually comes through that so pretty and supple and healthy, because all of the diseased parts got burned up. And, you know, the Lord will work all things together for good. That’s in Romans eight twenty eight.

Jill:
55:15

It’s and it’s not that he causes all things, but he will take the things that happen and turn them around in our lives. And I know that’s what he’s done with me. He’s turned my whole paradigm of him around, and I am still a strong woman of faith, but it’s like my foundation is is stronger now. And my trust is deeper than it was. And I just want to encourage you with that, that he will bring you through and cause this horrible thing you’re walking through to be a vessel that he can work through to bring you to a closer relationship with him and a deeper faith in him.

Jill:
56:08

So, just grateful for this Proverbs, three, five, and six. How does it start?

Charlie:
56:16

Trusting.

Jill:
56:17

Trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Don’t lean on your own understanding. When he spoke that scripture, that’s what inspired this thought on my heart. Yeah. That and I was thinking about it earlier too, but I since he came back to it, I just wanted to to comment on it.

Jill:
56:34

So Yeah. Yeah. Did you wanna

Charlie:
56:37

say Well, something appreciate that. You know, you’ve said that so well, by the way. Thank you. And so, yeah, we we are grateful for for pastor Sean and and for this time. And in closing, we do wanna remind you of our book, When Lost Comes Close to Home.

Charlie:
56:55

We’ve had so many great comments about it about this book. You can get it in audio version. You can get it in in digital version. And I go to Amazon or any of the great bookstores that are out there. We have it on Apple Music, Apple whatever it is, all the Apple Books.

Charlie:
57:15

Yeah. Download digitally or audio. But the book has really helped a lot of people, and we we keep getting these testimonies, and people are are grateful. And as we are on this podcast, we’re very transparent in the book about our pain and about what we went through and how we didn’t think we would make it. But God’s grace did pull us through, and you may be in that same situation, where you don’t know if you’re gonna make it through this family that just lost their son just Sunday, wasn’t A

Pastor Sean:
57:49

days ago.

Charlie:
57:49

A few days ago. It’s like, ugh. I mean, I can’t imagine, but at the same time, I feel like brand new, I can’t imagine. It’s like the pain that they’re going through right now. Oh, my heart bleeds.

Charlie:
58:04

But, anyway, we sure do love you, and we sure do appreciate you.

Jill:
58:07

And we’d love to invite you to join our email list.

Pastor Sean:
58:11

Yes.

Jill:
58:11

And we have some free gifts for you.

Charlie:
58:15

Yes.

Jill:
58:15

There’s a downloadable nine steps for the bereaved and their supporters. There’s some, I think some scriptures of comfort that you can download. Just have lots of wonderful resources

Charlie:
58:31

Yeah. For Five free songs as well when you sign up on our mailing list. We do look to you as well for those who can to support our ministry. You know, we have monthly partners. We have one time donations that really, to be honest with you, sustain us, you know, in our ministry.

Charlie:
58:51

We we really need the support of our friends, of our partners, and, we appreciate it so much. So if you would consider that, there’ll be a link there to to look at the our partnership program and the donation portals that are there. That really also helps us to keep going. You know Jill and I, as you know, can see, we have a burden to help hurting people that are going through losses. And so your financial support will really help us in that So as thank you.

Charlie:
59:26

Thumbs up the video if you’re watching it on video or wherever you check Spotify or whatever you listen to this on and let us know that you like it and forward it.

Jill:
59:36

Yeah. Share it with someone that you feel like it would be a blessing to.

Charlie:
59:40

Absolutely.

Jill:
59:40

And subscribe. And that way you’ll never miss a notification of when our new, new episodes come up.

Charlie:
59:47

Amen. Okay. Well, thank you so much again for joining us, and we’ll look forward to seeing you and being with you again the next time.

Jill:
59:56

Yes. We will.