Episode 82
When Should I Be “Over It”?

Charlie:
00:09

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Finding Hope podcast, Getting Through What You Never Asked For. And today, we’re very excited about having pastor Billy Cerveny. Cerveny. You’re gonna have to help me with that, Billy.

Billy:
00:26

That’s close. Worst things have been done to it. It’s Cerveny.

Charlie:
00:29

Cerveny, there you go. So Billy, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. We’ve known you now for about a little over a year or close to a year now actually where I first met you and that was when you were doing Yvonne’s O’Brien’s funeral there in your Saint Mark’s Church and that’s the first time we met and Jill and I sang a little song and you and I connected with your musical background as well as your ministerial background, I think we look forward to even more connection. I was…

Billy:
01:03

But

Charlie:
01:04

our friend Grady, whom you know and love so much has been through a really difficult time losing his wife. And you have been there for him. I just want to thank you for that. I really

Billy:
01:16

do. He

Charlie:
01:18

is, you know how dear he is to Jill and I and how dear Yvonne was with Jill and I. I mean, we were so close. And that was one of the hardest losses that we have had. Of course, you know, we lost our son seventeen years ago. But for Yvonne, what a beautiful, bright soul and person, and then her husband Grady just walking through this.

Charlie:
01:41

So thank you so much for loving on him and being there for him.

Billy:
01:46

You’re welcome. No, it’s been hard to say you’re welcome just because it’s been a joy to me. So it’s been a blessing to me. And thank you for saying that though.

Charlie:
01:55

Well, you know, when we go through the pain of loss, you know, it’s hard to find what Jill and I call in our books safe friends. And that is people that we can really be honest with and bear our pain and not be afraid to bear our hearts and our pains. And you’ve been that way for Grady because in a lot of the Christian world, you too, when you grieve too much in front of them, they start saying, now you gotta get over this, now you gotta move on, now you gotta, you know, you’re in trouble here. They don’t look at grief as something that’s, you know, that is something that’s valid and something that’s permissible in a lot of, and especially in a lot of my circles. But anyway-

Billy:
02:40

And unavoidable, sadly, this side of heaven.

Charlie:
02:43

Yeah.

Billy:
02:43

It’s just part of our… It’s something we try to face palm out of the way. We don’t like to talk about it. It’s this thing that we keep over here that we have to go through every once in a while, but it is just an inextricable part of this fallen world. And as soon as we make peace with the idea of talking about it and navigating it together, the sturdier we will be.

Billy:
03:07

The idea is that it become… The idea or the reality that we can make this a taboo topic or just something that’s impolite. We need to normalize these kinds of conversations. And so people, all people, because all people experience loss and that is the emotional encounter with loss is grief. I don’t care if it’s small or if it’s, you know, cataclysmic, but we all know it and we all experience it.

Billy:
03:41

Though we would be wise to all figure out how we could talk about it in a healthy and gospel centered way.

Charlie:
03:47

Absolutely, beautifully said. You know, we recently heard you teach actually on this subject, and Grady actually sent us one of your sermons or whatever context it was in, but Jill and I were really blessed by it. And you had obviously done a lot of research. And one of the things you said was a quote that says, One of the hardest things about grief is not that your loved one is gone, but that the love you still have for them doesn’t have a place to land. Yeah.

Charlie:
04:23

Could you share a little bit more about about just that whole aspect of…

Billy:
04:27

Sure. You know, that’s that’s something that CS Lewis taught me. And through his, when he lost his wife and he wrote, you know, at length about his process of grieving. Just to kind of paraphrase what you just said, I think that’s part of the tragedy. The question is like, what is grief in general?

Billy:
04:49

Like what does it mean that we grieve? To grieve something is this, grief is this cocktail that we experience, this emotional experience that is of sadness, of fear, of anger, and all these things that can come together. And sometimes we taste one thing more than the other. Sometimes I’ll taste more fear. Sometimes the sadness is more present.

Billy:
05:13

Sometimes it’s the anger, but it’s this multifaceted thing that we go through and that we experience. It’s something that happens when we have loved something and we have lost it. And we have lost it. Simple. And it is…

Billy:
05:30

And we hate grief. We hate it. It’s a terrible experience. You know? It’s, it’s, and it, we hate it because the only time we experience it is when we, like I just said, when we have loved something and we have lost it.

Billy:
05:44

And the the the deeper and the more profoundly we have loved something, the more the more exorbitant and three-dimensional our grief is in those moments. Yeah. And so it’s it’s… But the beautiful thing about it is this, is that God gave us the capacity to grieve. And he did that for a reason.

Billy:
06:08

He built that into us. Why is that? Because so that that, a, to… We experience the depth of the thing we’ve loved. We experience that.

Billy:
06:20

We experience that when we grieve deeply, we can look look back at the thing or look towards the thing and we can realize, man, it was worth it. You know, one the things I say at a funeral, when I address the sadness and the tears and the grief in a funeral, often say, you know, there is something… Is is unpleasant and as difficult as the grief and sadness we experience here in this moment. There is something far worse. And that’s…

Billy:
06:48

What’s worse is going to a funeral that’s not sad. Because what does that say? You know, what does that say about the person that you’re putting in the ground or, you know, that you’re memorializing? It’s saying, you know, the relationships weren’t there. And that’s…

Billy:
07:03

I mean, you know, when I leave, when my time is over, I want people to cry. Right? Sorry. Gather around. I want lots of tears.

Billy:
07:15

I don’t care if you gotta rub soap in your eyes, whatever. That’s funny. Give me some tears because it means that it was worth it. It meant that my relationship with them mattered. Yeah.

Billy:
07:25

And that I that I occupied a space in their life that mattered and that God moved through that. And it’s not about me and not about like self, you know, aggrandizing and it’s not about building monuments to myself. It’s just about… It’s about relationship. And it’s about the depth of meaning that God created through the the beauty and the the beautiful and the broken and the the funny and the sad and all those things within a relationship.

Billy:
07:53

And when you get in that place, man, when you lose something like that, and you feel grief, like, it’s terrible, but thank God you do because it was worth it. And it… That means that person was meaningful. But back to your original question, the torment of grief is that you have this emotional inertia, this connection, this this thing that flows out of you that’s so profound and it’s so deep and it’s so real and it’s so consequential. Mhmm.

Billy:
08:26

And it and it hung on on… Around the shoulders and the heart and the conversations and the memories and the and the exchanges and the physical connection and the touching and the smells and the… All the things that fill a house when a person’s there and that are scream at you when they’re absent. Right? And that you have that emotional inertia that’s moving forward.

Billy:
08:53

And all of a sudden when that place, that person or that object or the thing or the individual is gone, now where do those… Where does that where does that love land? Yeah. Where does it land? Yeah.

Billy:
09:07

And it’s the it’s the torment of having to keep it aloft and to carry it in an unnatural way Mhmm. That shreds us. Mhmm. I don’t… And it’s…

Billy:
09:23

That’s where I get angry or where I feel sad or I feel ugh. And, you know, I’m using a lot of words to describe a a guttural because you gotta use a lot of words, man.

Charlie:
09:36

Yeah.

Billy:
09:37

Because it doesn’t… There’s no way to, you know, you gotta… You get… You spend the diamond and grief’s… I mean, you know this, brother.

Billy:
09:45

Yeah. Grief is complicated. And it is yeah. Something Good. Yeah.

Charlie:
09:50

Like you were saying, Billy, forgive me. But like you were saying at the beginning before we actually came on air, you know, it’s people feel a lot of people feel condemned and feel like, well, don’t that that they’re mourn. You know, a lot of people feel like, you know, well, there’s something wrong with me. I know for me, I cried so much the first year after Beau passed. I mean, I would just find myself crying every day in the middle of the day, somewhere many times a day.

Charlie:
10:21

And I even went to my doctor and I said, Hey, you gotta help me. I said, Something’s wrong with me. You know, and he didn’t give me any pills or anything, you know, because he said, Charlie, what you’re going through is natural. This is normal. It’s okay.

Charlie:
10:34

And I guess that’s what we’ve been finding as we continue to minister to people is they feel guilty because they know God loves them and they know they love God, but this thing just keeps coming out of them. This pain, this grief, this crying just keep pulling out of them. They ‘re like, what? Had a lady this weekend come to me. She goes, it’s been ten years since my mom and dad got in a car accident and died.

Charlie:
11:01

She goes, but I found myself crying yesterday. And she goes, is that okay? I feel real guilty. So address that.

Billy:
11:10

Yeah. Like, do you… Feeling guilty about grief is is… You know, I I don’t know who said this, but I’m stealing it from somewhere. But it was talking about our tears, and our tears are a love song.

Billy:
11:28

Mhmm. Alright. They’re a love song.

Charlie:
11:30

I gotta write that down.

Billy:
11:31

Yeah. And and they are… They’re a love song because they’re they’re a living expression and a monument for a love that endures for that thing you’ve lost, like we just said. Beautiful. And so to feel bad about grief, to feel guilty about grief, to feel, you know, is to…

Billy:
12:00

Is a disservice to the thing you loved, I… In my opinion. I mean, you’re… People say, you know, why am I so sad? Well, I’m like, you you…

Billy:
12:08

It… It’s it’s a… It doesn’t worry me that you’re sad. It would worry me if you weren’t. Right?

Billy:
12:16

It’s not weird that you’re sad. It’d be weird if you weren’t. Like, you’ve lost your husband or your wife or your child or your, you know, this… Your dog that you’ve had forever or this… Right.

Billy:
12:25

Whatever it is. This is a thing that it’s the expression of sadness that you are, you’re having in this moment. That’s not a, that’s not a product of something that is wrong. It’s a product of something that was that was right about you. It means you’re not shut down.

Billy:
12:42

You know? Again, I I think… What is what is it that CS Lewis says is, you know, if you wanna love him again, I’m gonna paraphrase him, but if you if you wanna love something, there’s a price tag that comes with this. And it means that you have a heart that’s penetrable. It means that you can…

Billy:
12:56

If I’m gonna love someone, it means I’m… I am giving that person permission to get to me. Right? Like, you’re gonna impact me. I’m giving you power over me.

Charlie:
13:04

Right.

Billy:
13:05

And there’s a surrender in this. I’m giving you power. Right? And and I am giving you power. And I’m not doing it indiscriminately.

Billy:
13:14

I’m not giving pearls to swine. I’m doing this in a… With… A in a gospel fueled way that I… You are a trustworthy person that has been brought into my life by the Lord, and I see you, and you…

Billy:
13:25

God has woven our stories together. But when I choose to love you, it’s… We… This is true of marriage.

Charlie:
13:31

Yep.

Billy:
13:31

Right? I am choosing to give you power. That’s like when we get married to someone, like, I always say this in premarital counseling, your wife or your spouse is now the most powerful person in your life. They are… Because they have access.

Billy:
13:45

Because you’ve given them the proximity and they know where you’re insecure, they know where you’re filled with shame, they know where you’re powerful, they know where you’re weak, they know your story, they know your wounds, they know all these kind of things. And when you invite them inside the, you know, the inside the the the ramparts of your defenses and you say, you know, for better or worse, you know, here you are. You have now… They have the… They can either incinerate you with a word or they can build you up with the simple touch of a hand.

Billy:
14:19

Mhmm. Right? And with that in mind, when we… Someone occupies that kind of space or something within those parameters and we lose them, like, course you’re gonna be sad. Now it’s a different question if, all right, I’m five years down the road and I’m…

Billy:
14:39

I can’t get out of bed in the morning still. And I am I am entombed in my grief, that’s a different conversation. Right. Right? That’s a different thing than…

Billy:
14:50

I have these moments where I just have really hard days or I just start crying. Right? I mean, that’s that’s okay. And that’s that’s very different than being trapped and entombed in something that becomes a whole another thing. But, you know, what we’re talking about, what you’re describing, you know, I think is is very…

Billy:
15:13

It’s very normal. Think, you know, especially I hear when I… And you could probably… You… Undeniably, you would be able to speak to this better than me, Charlie.

Billy:
15:25

But but the… Meaning, what I’m about to say is that, you know, when someone loses a child, you know, the question is how do I ever get over this? Like, bro, you’re you’re not getting over this. Mm-mm. And, like, do you wanna get over this?

Billy:
15:40

Like, it’s not about getting over it.

Charlie:
15:43

Right.

Billy:
15:43

It’s just in time is how do you walk with it? Mhmm. How does this become… How do you make peace with grief? How do you how do you walk in such a way that you don’t…

Billy:
15:59

You you… You know, your grief is an honoring feeling. You’re honoring the thing you’ve lost, and you don’t… You know, there’s a… There are those who’s…

Billy:
16:06

I don’t wanna ever not, you know, be sad or not grievous. And, of course, you wouldn’t because you’re… You always wanna honor the one you’ve lost, especially if it’s a child. Right. But how do you walk with it?

Billy:
16:18

Right. And not be just utterly consumed by it in such a way that you’re… You know, you can’t, you can’t move. Sorry, my lights are shifting in the background. But I do…

Billy:
16:31

So, yeah, I know that was a long winded answer to a short question, I hope that makes sense.

Charlie:
16:36

No, it’s powerful. It’s very great. I mean, and you’re right, like I said, seventeen years off for us with our son, Bovee. But like you said, I’ll never forget him and I purpose not to forget him. I love it.

Charlie:
16:55

Have pictures of him playing drums right here in my studio and pictures all over the place. Before I go to bed, I’ve got a picture of him on my dresser. And, it’s not that that picture makes me cry and makes me get into depression or anything like that. It’s just, it’s a sweet memory. Think of him, I love him.

Charlie:
17:16

And in fact, recently, I was looking up at him playing drums and I felt I felt from heaven him saying, dad, don’t stop playing music. Keep going. Keep going, buddy. You know, just just loving on me and but but yeah, it it’s it’s something that you carry like you said, Bill. It it’s something that you walk with.

Charlie:
17:35

And people, unfortunately, that don’t understand are always trying to get us to just get it behind you and move forward. In fact, I don’t want to talk, I want you to talk more than me, I remember when Beau passed, my oldest daughter was pregnant with our first grandson. And so six months after Beau passed, we had a brand new baby boy, which was incredibly blessed, you know, blessing. But we’re still grieving loss of our son deeply. And so, you know, we see the joy of a new birth, my daughter lost her brother, and she’s still grieving terribly.

Charlie:
18:18

And so it’s this mixture of joy and pain, we learn to live with. I can lead worship and praise Jesus with all my heart, but at the same time, there’s always this little something in here that little bit of pain. But six months after when she had the baby, people at church would come up to me and they stopped saying, How are you doing? Or I’m thinking about Bovee or I’m pained over your loss. They stopped saying that.

Charlie:
18:51

They started saying, Oh, you have a grandson. Oh, that must be so awesome. And it was almost like Yoda going, Don’t think about your son. Think about your grandson now. You don’t want to think about I don’t want to bring you any pain, so don’t think.

Charlie:
19:09

And I remember that period, Jill and I both were like, Come on people, get real. Yes, we’re overjoyed like any person would be to have a grandson, but you’re not going to get over the loss of your son in six months, you know? We’re still in deep grief, know? Address that. Speak into our life in that arena as well.

Billy:
19:30

Brother. Hear you, man. You know, one of the one of the most challenging… Or let me put it… Say it in

Charlie:
19:35

different

Billy:
19:35

way. One of the deeply challenging things for those who are navigating grief, especially for those… When there’s… The grief is someone that’s very close to them is having to navigate other people’s awkwardness, man.

Charlie:
19:54

Come on.

Billy:
19:54

Oh gosh. Because people are so stupid in the way they deal with you. It’s just true. Like, there are times where I’m like, did you just say that? Or I…

Billy:
20:04

You’re… You know? And what that is is people get uncomfortable. They, it’s not that they don’t care. Yeah.

Billy:
20:12

It’s not that they don’t love you. Right. But they see this, like, you know, to personify it, they see this person in front of them with this head wound or a spiritual head wound that Yeah. They have no idea how to deal with or address, and it makes them so uncomfortable because I don’t know. A, this is horrific to to to see.

Billy:
20:37

A, it’s stirring all kinds of things in me. I feel so wildly insecure and ill equipped to do it. The spiritual people deal with this. Not, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so they just they just…

Billy:
20:48

I wish that they had a spigot that I could turn off on the side of their head to stop them from talking, but just words come out. And they speak in platitudes. Well, you know, God works all things together for the good. And he’s in a better place now and better and platitude. And they just keep putting these Christian band aids on and you just wanna smack them.

Billy:
21:09

I’m sorry. I know they mean well, but it hurts you. And they don’t… Again, they don’t mean it. You know?

Billy:
21:16

And, you know, one of the most profound things… And I I… When I walk with people that have been in that place or they’re going through something like that, well, that’s one of the things I always say is I just wanna prepare you that people are really awkward.

Charlie:
21:31

Yep.

Billy:
21:31

And they’re not being mean and they’re not… Or some… Or they go really silent. And it doesn’t mean they don’t love you. It just means they don’t know how to do this in the same way you don’t.

Billy:
21:43

But they just don’t know how to be with you in this, and that’s more about them than it is about you. And, you know, you’re… You know this, Charlie. You know, when those moments and you’re going through something is cataclysmic is losing Bovee or anything like that when you’re dealing with grief, sometimes the best… Actually, 98% of the time, the best thing to do is you show up and you shut up.

Charlie:
22:16

Yep.

Billy:
22:16

And you just sit and… As you sit in a… As a witness of their pain. Right. And you say, I’m not gonna go.

Billy:
22:24

Just think about the story of Jesus in Gethsemane.

Charlie:
22:27

Mhmm.

Billy:
22:29

Jesus… I I get tears thinking about it. This is this is… This was such a powerful picture for me in my life going through hard times. Mhmm.

Billy:
22:37

Here’s Jesus. He is he is in his most human moment. He’s always human, but you know what I mean with this. Mhmm. He’s he’s facing his own demise.

Billy:
22:46

He knows what’s about to happen. No one else knows. He knows. Mhmm. Maybe he doesn’t know the details fully of how it plays out, but he knows he’s going on to the cross.

Billy:
22:56

And he knows it’s gonna be terrible, and he knows he’s gonna have his skin removed. And his… This… I mean, just it all. He’s going to suffer separation, and he’s gonna he is gonna dive into the wood chipper and experience a pain the likes of which not only does he deserve that no human ever has experienced.

Billy:
23:16

And he’s going in, and what’s this one thing he says to his people? Stay awake. I’m going over here. I just need… Don’t leave me.

Billy:
23:26

This is Jesus. Don’t leave me. Because what’s he saying in that, like, I need… Like, the the foundational cry of the human heart is, I… Don’t don’t leave me alone.

Billy:
23:38

And he comes out and he sees his… The the disciples who just mean so well, and they’re asleep. And they abandon him in that moment in their weakness, and he even lets them off the hook like the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. But if Jesus Christ in his moment of pain is crying out for one thing in that moment, as he’s… In his moment of grief where he’s…

Billy:
23:59

It’s so deep. He’s sweating blood.

Charlie:
24:02

Yeah.

Billy:
24:02

Listen, man. I know you’ve heard. I’ve heard too. I’m gonna venture to guess you’ve never sweat blood and neither have I. And in that moment, the one thing he’s asking for beyond like, father, if there’s a way for you to take this cup from my lips, but thy will not mine, the next thing he’s asking is just be with me.

Charlie:
24:23

Yeah.

Billy:
24:24

Like, we should take a cue from that. Then how do we go and we sit with other people in their grief? And it’s not with… We fill the air with my awkward words and these stale, like, my condolences and, you know, phrases. Like, I don’t even know what a condolence means.

Billy:
24:42

Right. Right? What is that? I don’t know what that means. Well, my dad died.

Billy:
24:47

I sure a lot of them. And it’s fine. I get it, man. I get it. Get what condolences…

Billy:
24:54

Get it. And I’m not condemning folks. Please forgive me. I’ve said it. I’ve done it.

Billy:
24:59

I’ve said the dumb thing. Yeah. I’ve I’ve got it. But the the the point I’m trying to make is more about the heart of the one grieving than about the the fumbly ways that we enter into other people’s grief, and I still do it all the time. But the hard one is grieving is, oh my gosh.

Billy:
25:16

Like, I can’t fix your grief, man. Mhmm. But but my… With the foundation of my grief, you know, there there is something worse than being sad. And this is it is being alone in my my sadness.

Billy:
25:29

Yeah. Or being alone in my fear. Yeah. Or being alone in my shame. Or being alone in my…

Billy:
25:34

There’s a reason Jesus is… Calls himself Emmanuel, God with us. Mhmm. Right? There’s a there’s a reason that that the…

Billy:
25:43

That when Jesus rose from the dead or when when the… When Jesus was crucified and he died and he descended into hell and he rose, that the temple curtain was torn in half so God’s presence could flow out. There’s a reason that in in John one where the word became flesh and he made his… Pitched his tent. He made his dwelling place among men.

Billy:
26:02

It’s it’s we… What is the most foundational cry of the human heart? You know, you look at you look at Adam in in in the garden when sin enters in, what’s the first thing Adam does? He realizes he’s naked. He sprints into the woods.

Billy:
26:16

He hides there. He’s crouched down. He covers himself with leaves. I mean, you can imagine how awkward that scene is. God comes.

Billy:
26:24

He calls his name. He’s calling him. He’s a… Adam, where are you? He knew where Adam is.

Billy:
26:30

God never asked a question he doesn’t know the answer to. And why is he doing that? He… Because Adam is Adam is, you know, he’s hiding. He’s he’s afraid.

Billy:
26:38

He’s… He doesn’t know, you know, and what what was he saying? Why are you hiding? Because he felt deep shame. And his biggest fear in that moment was if you had seen me like this, you would have rejected me.

Billy:
26:54

Mhmm. And that I would be alone. And I would be condemned to this life of isolation. Mhmm. Navigating this world alone.

Billy:
27:04

And what does God do? He draws him near. He draws him near. When Jesus hung on the cross, in that moment where the the the one who was sinless, he becomes… He’s fully human, but he he becomes the most like us when sin is poured onto him, and it’s the moment where he he he absorbs the sin of the world.

Billy:
27:30

And he has that moment and he’s quoting Psalm 22, and he could have said anything in that moment where he identifies with the human experience, the cry of the human heart. He could have said anything, but what’s the one thing he said? Quotes Psalm 22. My God. My God.

Billy:
27:46

Why have you forsaken me? And that is just the foundational cry of our hearts. Like, why? Don’t leave me. Don’t leave me alone.

Billy:
27:55

And we experience grief, man. It puts its finger right in the middle that you’re leaving me. And, like, you’re supposed to have been here forever. You’re there. And so what’s the best thing we can do with someone that’s grieving?

Billy:
28:06

Man, we step into this… We we rappel into the bottom of that well, and you can just sit with them like, I’m here.

Charlie:
28:14

Yeah.

Billy:
28:14

I’m here. I’m tending the fire. Right. And I’m staying awake.

Charlie:
28:18

Right.

Billy:
28:19

And where I fall asleep, we can remind them in appropriate ways that there’s a Jesus who’s tending the fire for us that we cannot ever tend the fire. Mhmm. And… That’s good. Beautiful.

Charlie:
28:33

That’s good, man. Yeah. I mean, you’re just… You’re ringing my bell, bro, you know, because, you know, we we feel that, we teach that, we encourage. And like you said, we’ve all made the mistakes.

Charlie:
28:48

I remember Jill, we went to a funeral before we had lost Bovee, a dear friend of ours had lost her husband, and he was a really cool guy. We just loved him. He was funny and joking all the time. And I remember walking into that funeral right near, we were almost late, and our friend was there greeting people. And we said, oh, that’s just like him.

Charlie:
29:14

He wanted to beat us to heaven. Praise God. Isn’t that something? And she just went, uh-huh. Yeah.

Charlie:
29:19

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And we walked away going, oh, You know, what came out of our mouth? You know, that was ridiculous.

Charlie:
29:27

That was very insensitive, And you so I like you have mercy on people because I was that way too. I didn’t understand and I always was trying to find the right words to comfort a friend of mine who had who had a loss and I just had no words, know, and, and I don’t want to start preaching, but I could but you know, it’s like, Joe,

Billy:
29:50

baby, need Yeah, yeah.

Charlie:
29:52

Well, know, like, the three men, the three they saw his pain, they sat with him for seven days, and I know you’ve preached this before, and they had no words, because his pain was so deep. And that’s what you’ve been sharing. Just show up and shut up. I put that in my book as well. So it’s like, you know, your presence, the power of your presence, the power of just listening.

Charlie:
30:17

That’s another whole issue, just listening. And Jill and I, even though we have experienced this and we know the depth of the pain, even for someone who’s lost a child, we’ve had to learn how when we go to minister to them or love on them, we go, Oh yeah, well, I know what you mean because Bo, I know what you mean because Bo, because Bo, No. No. No. No.

Charlie:
30:39

No.

Billy:
30:40

I just

Charlie:
30:40

shut up. Yes. And I just listen. You know? And that the power of just listening.

Charlie:
30:47

Job’s three friends, they started off well. They screwed up after that. And there’s a scripture that jumped out of the page for me, you’ll love this one. Job said, I have heard all these words from you guys. He said, and I’m paraphrasing, he says, this is the phrase, miserable comforters are you all.

Charlie:
31:05

Miserable comforters. That touched me so greatly because that’s what we all are, miserable comforters until we figure it out and learn, you know, how to weep with those who weep, how to how to love those instead of try to fix them. You do the love and I’ll do the fixing is what the Lord told me. So anyway, yeah, man.

Billy:
31:29

Thanks for You know, what’s what’s what strikes me in that as you’re saying that, you know, is what it triggers in us when we encounter grief. It, so often it triggers my own grief. Right? And there are things that, you know, especially with you, it’s so easy to like, oh gosh, I’ve, and it’s like this. And, and you know, here’s the thing about, about grief is grief is like loving your wife or, humility.

Billy:
31:59

You never have a handle on it. Like you never feel like, oh, I’ve got, I’m good at this. It always, you always feel bad at it. Right. You’re never going to be, oh, I’ve mastered this.

Charlie:
32:12

Right.

Billy:
32:13

You might have made peace. You might have walked with a particular grief so long that you now have developed a relationship with that loss in such a way that it doesn’t impact you the way… But you have not mastered grief because you could experience another loss, and it’s an entirely new experience.

Charlie:
32:34

Right?

Billy:
32:35

Do you have some wisdoms and you have some… But it’s just a new experience, and you just never, oh, I’ve got this one. Like, when I lost my father, it’s gonna be very different than when I lose my mother or if my wife were to die, and God forbid if I ever were to lose, you know, a child, like, you’ve sadly had to walk through. But grief is one of those things that we’re never… We’re…

Billy:
32:57

We never are good at it. Right? Right. And it’s it’s… Because it’s always thrusting us into a fresh place of vulnerability and a fresh place of need and a fresh place of dependence on the Lord.

Billy:
33:15

And it’s it’s… So that’s why when people say, and it’s almost cliche, you hear this, but it’s it’s it’s really true. There’s just no playbook for it. There’s no playbook for where you are. Right?

Billy:
33:29

It’s not okay. Could go left here and right here, hit the button hook and, you know, run this route or that route. It just doesn’t… There are truths and there are wisdoms. Mhmm.

Billy:
33:39

And there’s discernment, but there ain’t no playbook, man. And that’s the thing, and part of the confusing thing about it is there are times when you need to laugh in the middle of it. Mhmm. There are times when I need someone to make the joke like, oh, he just needed to beat you to heaven or whatever. There’s times like, yeah.

Billy:
33:59

And then there are times when that’s so wildly inappropriate, you know? Right. It’s… And that’s why it’s that’s why listening is a much better tool in moments like that than leading with our language.

Charlie:
34:11

Yeah, that’s really good. Well, it’s a very interesting journey people, so many, like you said at the beginning, so many people are going through it. We have no idea how many. I mean, sometimes I’ll say, have you lost a loved one and you still feel it, will you raise your hand? And the majority of them, at least half will raise their hand and and and they’re not addressed, you know, and and they’re…

Charlie:
34:42

They… Oops. Sorry about that. They feel they feel… There we go.

Charlie:
34:47

Full on right there. I didn’t put the focus on do not disturb. Just is good. Yeah, people feel all alone, you know, they come up to us after and they say, Thank you for addressing this. Nobody talks about this, you know, in Bible school or whatever.

Charlie:
35:03

You went to seminary. I assume there was a course on how to minister to those who are grieving, although they wouldn’t teach it in our Bible colleges, I’m trying to get in there.

Billy:
35:15

Wasn’t a course about how to grieve. I went to, I loved my seminary. It was great. And they, I have a, had a, I went to Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis.

Charlie:
35:27

Oh gosh, right down the

Billy:
35:29

street from

Charlie:
35:29

where I lived. Right down the street from where I lived.

Billy:
35:32

Yeah, and Grieve Coeur. It was a profound experience because, you know, here’s one of the things that you experience. Well, I’ll tell you why I loved it, is that they really saw that spiritual maturity and emotional maturity were two sides of the same coin. That you can have, you can be packed to the gunnels with theological knowledge and insight. And I could tell you who…

Billy:
36:00

You know, I could tell you the five points of Calvinism or I could riff on Wesley’s this, or I can tell you what J. I. Packer says about this or the extra Calvinistic about whatever, all that stuff. But the end of the day, when someone knocks on my door to… As a pastor, when they come in, they’re knocking on the door and they sit down, they’re not coming to me to discuss what God’s beef was was with the Amalekites.

Billy:
36:27

Right? They’re coming because their spouse had an affair or their child has cancer or they lost their job and they’re looking to me for a plumb line. Ugh. And the worst thing I can do in that moment is be like, well, let’s just rub some Philippians four on that. You know, be anxious about nothing.

Billy:
36:47

I appreciate it. It’s not that that’s wrong.

Charlie:
36:49

Right.

Billy:
36:50

Right. It’s not that that’s wrong, but the right thing administered at, in the wrong way at the wrong time becomes the wrong thing. And it becomes spiritual manipulation and a lack of an unwillingness for me to be present and to let them excavate. Now in seminary, the seminary that I went to was very good about trying to take people on an emotional journey into their own stories and walk into a biblical understanding of counseling and they took them, you know, appropriate. And I actually really deep dived into that.

Billy:
37:26

I did most of my masters in… All the counseling, the classwork for masters in counseling there as well. So that was really important to me. My wife’s a therapist, and it’s, it’s just something that’s, kind of near and dear to us. But, people…

Billy:
37:41

You’re right. They don’t… It’s not something that is taught. And, it’s not… And it’s it’s something…

Billy:
37:48

And the the hard thing about it, one of the reasons is, is that it’s very easy to teach factual knowledge about grief. Mhmm. But for someone to acquire wisdom as it relates to grief, You have to be willing to go to difficult places, in yourself, in the in the stories of other people, and you have to have experienced it in your own life in some capacity. And the truth is we all have. I don’t care who you’re…

Billy:
38:23

We live in a world that is marked by loss. Mhmm. Now some loss is tremendous, like, you know, like your losses that you and Jill have experienced is, you know, is you’re part of a club that no one wants membership to. Right? But I…

Billy:
38:40

But to be human is to experience lost in trivial certain… In the most trivial ways, like, oh, I’ve prepared this great meal and I’ve eaten it and now it’s done and oh, all that ex… No. It’s a letdown. To, you know, I’m grieving this season of my life is over.

Billy:
39:00

I was once this and I’ve lost that. I’m, you know, I just turned, you know, I just had another birthday and I ain’t as flexible as I once was. I groan like my dad did when I get out of You a know what I’m saying? Like I might, I get winded when I’m putting my boot on or whatever it is, you know, we grieve the loss of this. Grieve.

Billy:
39:19

So it’s accessible to all of us. Yeah. Right? It’s, you know, and it’s part of our human experience. And let me just…

Billy:
39:28

Don’t hear what I’m not saying. And I know you’re not, but whoever’s listening to this. Mhmm. I’m not saying grief is something in which we should wallow or we should, we should pursue. Right?

Billy:
39:42

That’s not… We’re we’re not called to pursue grief.

Charlie:
39:46

Right.

Billy:
39:47

There was only one person who pursued grief and that was Jesus. Mhmm. And he did it because he didn’t want us to be alone in it. And he did it out of out of love for the joy set before him. Mhmm.

Billy:
40:02

He did it so that we wouldn’t feel alone.

Charlie:
40:05

Mhmm.

Billy:
40:05

Right? And the joy is you and me. And so he’s the only person who does that. But when… So meaning as in is…

Billy:
40:15

But even then it wasn’t an end. Right? It wasn’t grief for grief’s sake. But my point is is that is that when I say this, it’s all part of us. And the invitation here is to say, hey.

Billy:
40:27

Don’t be afraid of the grief that we experience in our life. In fact, you know, our journey when we encountered this, the question we ask is how do I turn the volume job down on it? And oftentimes what that is is a recipe for it festering and becoming something greater and bigger and more septic, and it lack comes out as alcoholism, or it comes out in porn addiction, or it comes out because it’s just these ways I’m trying to medicate not feeling this thing. And I… Just to keep the beach ball under the water.

Billy:
40:58

And I think sometimes the invitation is with wisdom and discernment and and almost always with another person, the question is, how do I turn the volume knob up in appropriate ways? How do I turn the volume on up so I can hear the what the loss of my heart is actually really… What I’m feeling, what my sadness is really telling me about this, what my what my what my loss is really telling me, my anger is telling me about this, what my fear is telling me about this. You know, we live in this, you know, as as Orthodox Christians, you’ll hear people say, you know, we live in a world where there’s there’s facts and there’s feelings. You know, my…

Billy:
41:43

You know, and we need to follow the truth of God. Like my… You know, the truth of God, not your feelings. Like my feelings don’t tell me what’s true. So they’ll just lead you down this rabbit hole.

Billy:
41:55

And man, I gotta tell you, I get the sentiment, and there’s a lot of truth in what they’re saying there. There’s a lot of wisdom. There’s some wisdom in that. But when you say that to someone who’s really in grief, that’s spiritual abuse.

Charlie:
42:07

It is.

Billy:
42:08

Because here’s the truth. I am… God created me, created you, Charlie, is an emotional being. It is the lens through which you experience everything. Period.

Billy:
42:18

And what they’re saying is in this moment that your that your feelings and your emotions are these pesky little problems that are to be solved. And that if you can just step out of them, if you can extricate yourself from there and stand in truth enough, then these things will melt away and go away. And I’m… That’s a lie. Mhmm.

Billy:
42:39

Like, you’re never gonna liberate yourself from the… This emotional framework. That’s like me asking you to step out of space and time. You can’t do it. And I will agree.

Billy:
42:52

My feelings do not tell me what is true. They don’t tell me what is true. But my feelings do tell me about what is true of my experience of truth. So when God says to me, you are loved or, you are loved, you’re no longer an… You’re holy and you’re righteous.

Billy:
43:15

I love you. And I said, but I know that’s true, but I feel shame. I acknowledge. I I genuflect to the truth of God’s word that that is true, but I know my experience is shame. Lord, use your word to penetrate this and help me understand what it is in me that so that I can metabolize that truth.

Billy:
43:38

Right? So as this… As we navigate this with grief, when people are saying, just, you know, rub some John, you know, like Philippians four on it. Don’t be anxious about nothing or just you just aren’t thinking the right thoughts. You know, there are times where I need to…

Billy:
43:53

But it’s just not an invitation to to… You know, the God’s truth is not an escape pod from the emotional experience of grief. Mhmm. It’s it’s a it’s a vessel in which I can journey more deeply into my grief and understand the depth of my loss, understand the the depth of his provision and the depth of my… The longings of my heart that would bring me to a place of healing, that would allow me to invite you in, that would bring me to a place of communion with Jesus in a new way that is unfathomable to me on the shallow end of the grief pool, if that makes sense.

Charlie:
44:32

That’s good, man. That’s good. Well, know, I know it it certainly helped me when I started to understand that number one that Jesus wept, and that he wept and because he wept and because in Romans, he tells us to weep with those who weep, then I started realizing that my crying and my tears were not bad. You know, they were good and healthy and actually healthy, as you mentioned earlier about tears, but they were actually a healthy way to get through this pain. My grief, my tears, all that was something that I eventually embraced.

Charlie:
45:14

I embraced it. I thought, you know, this is something interesting you talked about Jesus in the garden because I remember walking just a few weeks after our loss, Jill and I were walking somewhere. I remember thinking about Jesus facing the cross and the pain and the blood and everything. And I thought, I said this, I said, I said, Jesus, I said, you had a choice to do it or not. And thank you for making the right choice, making the choice to save me.

Charlie:
45:41

I said, But I don’t have a choice. I said, I’m facing this, and what the way our friend Grady says, this brutal, brutal, he uses the word brutal, passageway, almost like a baby going through the womb, you know, going through the passageway to be born. It’s like this brutal pain that I’m having to go through, I can’t escape it. I can try to run, I can try to hide, I can try to confess it away, I can try to Philippians four, put all this stuff, but I can’t get through it. Mean, I can’t get away from it.

Charlie:
46:13

It’s like they say, so high you can’t get over it, so low you can’t go, so wide you can’t get around it, you gotta go through the door. And I just found myself, I realized, God, I have got to go through this, and I’m going to go through it with you by my side, helping me, giving me permission to grieve, giving me permission to cry, and I’m trusting you that I’m gonna come through the other end better, not bitter, but better if I do this in a healthy way. That really helped me to just realize, and there’s a scripture in Isaiah that says that when they suffered, he suffered, or rather, I may be quoting a little bit wrong, but it says, when I suffer when you suffer, is basically what it’s saying, is God’s suffering with us. He feels our pain. He knows our pain.

Charlie:
47:05

And he suffers when we suffer. He weeps when we weep. That’s kind of the revelation I started getting that helped me get through it.

Billy:
47:12

I love it, man. It’s a beautiful thing because, you know, we feel like, you know, it’s the… It’s part of the thing with deep grief is when you’re going through something hard, you know, no one wants to be that guy where all of a sudden I’m like the inconvenient friend, like, oh gosh, Billy’s calling me again. And I don’t wanna be like, he’s just gonna dump his stuff or whatever. And we all have that fear that I’m gonna be, that I’m too much, right?

Billy:
47:38

That I’m too much. And there are times where man, we, you you get, people get compassion fatigue, right? Where they they’ve just sat in it too long. And that’s real. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Billy:
47:47

It happens, Right? It just happens. And it’s true. And, but I’ll tell you this, God doesn’t get that. Amen.

Billy:
47:55

God doesn’t get, he doesn’t get compassion fatigue. He just doesn’t get it. And, he’s not cavalier about our pain. We don’t have a… Like, when we experience loss, he doesn’t hit a clock and be like, alright.

Billy:
48:08

You’ve got, you know, the digital clocks running over our head, and we got a certain amount of time Right. To get past it. Right. He’s committed to us and our suffering.

Charlie:
48:17

Thank you, Jesus.

Billy:
48:18

You know, when we… When Jesus was raised from the dead, you know, he could have been raised any way he want. He could have done this any way he wanted to. He could have come out as a fireball and shot across Jerusalem and be like, look at me now, people. Yeah.

Billy:
48:35

But that’s not how he did it. He came in his physical form, but he came up with wounds in his hands. Wounds that he still has. And he could have all the things, like, why would you leave that? Mhmm.

Billy:
48:48

Like, that’s so peculiar. Like, you redeemed. You did the thing. Like, you’ve got a wound. You’ve got…

Billy:
48:54

Like, that’s so peculiar. Why? Because it didn’t do it because it was doing something for, you know, it… For him. It was because he wanted us to to know that we had…

Billy:
49:08

He identified with us eternally in our suffering. Yeah. As long as we’re in it, he’s saying it, look. As long as you’re in it, I’m in it, is what he’s saying. So that is a God that doesn’t get compassion fatigue.

Billy:
49:21

Right?

Charlie:
49:22

I love that.

Billy:
49:23

And he, it’s true, man. He, you know, there’s that place in John 11 where… I love it where you say Jesus wept, the shortest passage. And in all of scripture, and we certainly in the New Testament, that verse, Jesus… Shortest verse in all all scripture, Jesus wept.

Billy:
49:42

But right before that, Jesus is meeting Mary and Martha. And it says he sees their grief and it’s, there’s this line that the, that you read through it in the NIV or in the ESV, it says he was deeply moved.

Charlie:
49:57

And

Billy:
49:59

the translators in that, they kind of wussed out a little bit because the Greek word for deeply moved, it’s a Greek word that where it’s used in extra biblical literature, It’s all good.

Charlie:
50:13

It’s all right.

Billy:
50:13

So there’s a… It’s fine. There’s a… The Greek word that he uses in that passage for deeply moved, the only time we ever see it, it’s used in extra biblical literature to describe horses whose nostrils are flaring with rage, and they’re kicking against the stall, and they’re incensed, and they’re anger, and they’re angry. So the…

Billy:
50:36

It’s a very different picture of Jesus that that he has got this, this grief that he’s, he’s dirty crying. He’s got this, he’s, but he’s angry. And the question is, what’s the anger about? The anger is that he’s like, this is not the way it’s supposed to

Charlie:
50:51

be. Right.

Billy:
50:52

He’s, this is not what I created this for. And he has these tears with us, but he’s angry for us. And it’s that thing that propelled him to climb on the cross saying, I am fixing this. And I am I am bringing you home. I am gonna restore this.

Billy:
51:07

It called Lazarus out. And that one day we’re gonna hear our names

Charlie:
51:11

Praise God.

Billy:
51:12

Called forward and the rest… Praise God, because man.

Charlie:
51:14

That’s what I said. Whoo. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that, you know, and and, you know, the scriptures in in Revelations, you know, it says, that’s where there’ll be no more sorrow.

Charlie:
51:26

That’s where there’ll be no more pain in heaven. That’s where there’ll be no more tears, you know. And so it’s kind of like, you know, we have it. We have to live with it. Like you’ve said, we have so many different kinds of grief every day.

Charlie:
51:41

Some people certainly loses his job. He loses his wife. He loses his his his career, his four zero one k, whatever, you know, every… I mean, there’s lots of different types of grief, but but in this world, you’ll have tribulation. Be of good cheer, have overcome the world.

Charlie:
51:55

I mean, that’s our only hope is that he has overcome the world, that he has given us his love and his spirit. And thank you for for saying what you said because he will he will never leave us. He walks with us through pain. And I love the fact those are there to remind us, you know, I suffered and I’ve suffered for you and I’m gonna walk with you through pain. I love that.

Charlie:
52:20

That’s a really, really

Billy:
52:22

great It’s just so meaningful to know that, you know?

Charlie:
52:26

Yeah.

Billy:
52:26

It’s also meaningful to know, just hearing you talk about you know, the day that will be called forward. You know, the truth is like, it’s… I don’t say this in any trite or trivial way, but there’s a there’s a shelf life to our grief. And what I mean by that is this won’t last forever.

Charlie:
52:50

Yeah.

Billy:
52:51

Like, it does come to an end.

Charlie:
52:53

Praise the Lord.

Billy:
52:54

It’s like this. I remember, like, in in… When I was playing soccer when I was a younger man and when I’d be on these teams in college or in high school and they they would take us out on a run. And the worst thing they could do for me is they take us out on these long runs is I didn’t know how long the run was. If I didn’t know where the where the where the where the end zone was or where the finish line was.

Billy:
53:17

And they did that on purpose because they knew how much more painful it was because I didn’t know where the ending was. But once I knew it Wow. Once I saw it, okay. I got it here. It’s only here.

Billy:
53:29

It’s right around the court. I can see it. Or if you’re running the race and you know where the finish… And then when you can see it, all of a sudden, you get this second win. You can…

Billy:
53:37

It it… You’re like, I can do this.

Charlie:
53:39

That’s

Billy:
53:39

good. Right? I I can I can do it? It it encourages me not just to to weather this… My…

Billy:
53:45

The suffering, but it allows me to suffer well

Charlie:
53:48

Yes.

Billy:
53:49

Knowing that this suffering doesn’t last forever.

Charlie:
53:52

Well, that’s good. That’s really good. Well, Billy, this has all been so amazing and I appreciate your perspective as a pastor and ministering to people like this, ministering to our friend Grady, as mentioned. And I know we could talk for hours, I’m sure, but I appreciate We’re warming up, man. What’s that?

Billy:
54:12

We’re just warming up. Good.

Charlie:
54:16

No, it’s true. We’ll have to have you back on again for sure.

Billy:
54:20

I love, I really appreciate, I appreciate your heart, man. I, and I love just, if I could just say to you, you know, you talk about suffering well and not wasting your pain. Like, when I look at you and I listen to you, you are a man. Man, no one would ever ask for what you walked in like you just said. But brother, what a faithful journey.

Billy:
54:42

And I know it’s been ups and downs and I know you… Part of you would be like, if you only knew, it’s not that, you know, you knew what I did and what I’ve been through and how I’ve handled it. But brother, just as I sit and listen, do you… Well done good and faithful servant. Thank you.

Billy:
54:56

You’re not you’re not wasting your pain. You’re suffering well. And I know that this is a vehicle… This podcast is a vehicle by what you’re processing and trying to understand still. But what a testimony to how God is using the broken things of this world to to bring hope and that you’re…

Billy:
55:14

I mean, think of all the people that feel unalone now because of you. I mean, think about it, man. How many people that that that that you are to them what it is when you consider the wounds in Jesus’ hands that you’re like, look, man, I’m showing you the wounds. Right? Showing you.

Billy:
55:30

And they’re like, okay, I’m not crazy. I’m not, I’m not broken. So well done, brother. I’m serious. Well done.

Charlie:
55:36

I appreciate the encouragement, Billy. We’re doing what we can just as you are in your diocese and, and I appreciate you. It’s like when we stumble upon someone who understands and that shares it. More pastors understand than evangelists and preachers and teachers, you know. Most of my traveling ministry, I’ve done most of the teaching and preaching, and then I’ve traveled with great Bible teachers, but I haven’t sat under pastors as much as I wish I would have.

Charlie:
56:17

But I know as I’ve journeyed to see more and more pastors, you, thank you for sharing this. Know, we’re on the same team. We understand this kind of pain and pastors are really ministering to their congregation because they just deal with it all the time. And I appreciate, I appreciate what you’re doing because they people need people need people who understand people who can who can just love them and help them get through these dark, difficult times, no doubt.

Billy:
56:47

Well, I appreciate it, man. That’s all we got and all we have in the middle of… Like, it’s gonna be dark and difficult. The question is not whether that’s gonna come up. This question is how do we wanna walk it?

Billy:
56:57

So I’m thankful that you and I can lock arms and walk it together. So appreciate you, brother.

Charlie:
57:02

Thanks so much, buddy. Well Yes, sir. We’ll try to have you back on and maybe with my lovely wife, Jill, to help and help me a little bit.

Billy:
57:10

Absolutely.

Charlie:
57:10

And so god bless you. Appreciate you, Billy.

Billy:
57:14

Yes, man.

Charlie:
57:15

We’ll we’ll get together again. So everybody, thank you so much for being part of the podcast, being with us. There’ll be links below. If you need any other information, any way that we can help you in any way. Our website is full of information and with videos and our podcasts, of course, just to help you in any way that we can.

Charlie:
57:36

We’ve just released an eight week course actually on grief recovery called Finding Hope After Loss. And it’ll help you eight thirty minute teachings and with a companion guide that comes with it, as well as some songs. Jill and I sing a song at the end of every teaching. So we encourage you to look into that. Go to our website, charlieandjill.com.

Charlie:
58:01

And again, any way that we can help you, comments, give us a thumbs up, anything we can do to help you get through these really, really tough, difficult times that we know way too well. We wanna be a partner with you and help you to to walk through that. God bless you. We love you. And look forward to getting back and seeing you again next time we do a podcast.

Charlie:
58:25

Bye bye now. God bless.